1 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:09,500 on this episode of skeptical and I think 2 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:12,210 that's the sadness about so much of 3 00:00:17,570 --> 00:00:15,420 science because it's taken us from do 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:17,580 you know where Christianity in our 5 00:00:22,490 --> 00:00:20,130 British culture Christianity was so 6 00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:22,500 thick and it laid in the authorities and 7 00:00:27,140 --> 00:00:24,900 it knew exactly told everybody exactly 8 00:00:29,599 --> 00:00:27,150 what to think what to feel how to behave 9 00:00:32,780 --> 00:00:29,609 and then science has taken over and done 10 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:32,790 exactly the same thing that was a 11 00:00:37,549 --> 00:00:34,710 problem in Christianity and it's a 12 00:00:40,780 --> 00:00:37,559 problem in science stay with us 13 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:49,310 [Music] 14 00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:51,730 welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore 15 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:53,470 controversial science and spirituality 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:56,110 with leading researchers and crews and 17 00:00:59,340 --> 00:00:56,890 their critics 18 00:01:02,570 --> 00:00:59,350 I'm your host Alex seekers and I suppose 19 00:01:05,990 --> 00:01:02,580 I reel on and on about the absurdity of 20 00:01:08,070 --> 00:01:06,000 mainstream sciences position re 21 00:01:09,870 --> 00:01:08,080 consciousness that is this idea that 22 00:01:11,820 --> 00:01:09,880 it's basically an illusion a product of 23 00:01:13,469 --> 00:01:11,830 the brain biological robot meaningless 24 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:13,479 universe off head stuff you heard a 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:15,910 million times is that we still debated 26 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:17,650 that it's still respectable for 27 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:20,140 mainstream science intellectual types 28 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:22,570 academia types to to kick those ideas 29 00:01:26,790 --> 00:01:24,460 around in while I'm over and really dig 30 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:26,800 into them well it's just ridiculous so 31 00:01:31,889 --> 00:01:29,290 it's quite refreshing when someone who's 32 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:31,899 totally on the outside and has the 33 00:01:37,020 --> 00:01:34,210 dubious distinction of being a prominent 34 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:37,030 member of the neo druid neo-pagan 35 00:01:41,430 --> 00:01:39,070 community let alone the fact that she's 36 00:01:43,260 --> 00:01:41,440 a woman it's just fascinating when 37 00:01:44,820 --> 00:01:43,270 someone like that can step forward and 38 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:44,830 just kind of kick the out of 39 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:47,440 materialism very succinctly very 40 00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:49,690 concisely and do so in a way that brings 41 00:01:54,870 --> 00:01:51,070 us back to that question that I always 42 00:01:57,390 --> 00:01:54,880 ask how can this be so Emma rest'll or 43 00:01:59,760 --> 00:01:57,400 is our guest today she's the author of 44 00:02:01,920 --> 00:01:59,770 many very interesting books extremely 45 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:01,930 articulate extremely well-written we of 46 00:02:06,719 --> 00:02:04,150 course do not agree on some things on 47 00:02:08,910 --> 00:02:06,729 many things but we agree on many more 48 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:08,920 and it was certainly fun and delightful 49 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:11,530 to have her on skeptic oh and to have 50 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:14,140 her join me in this conversation here's 51 00:02:20,370 --> 00:02:17,890 my interview with Emma Russell or today 52 00:02:22,350 --> 00:02:20,380 we welcome Emma Russell or - skeptic Oh 53 00:02:26,220 --> 00:02:22,360 Emma is the author of several books 54 00:02:29,610 --> 00:02:26,230 including the wakeful world animism mind 55 00:02:32,070 --> 00:02:29,620 and the self in nature in which she 56 00:02:35,370 --> 00:02:32,080 suggests that animism this idea that 57 00:02:39,390 --> 00:02:35,380 everything even rocks trees stars are 58 00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:39,400 alive with consciousness well she dares 59 00:02:46,590 --> 00:02:43,000 to suggest that this radical crazy idea 60 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:46,600 is actually a coherent alternative to 61 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:49,650 scientific materialism so I of course 62 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:51,610 anyone who's listening to this show 63 00:02:56,729 --> 00:02:53,410 knows that I'm saying that 64 00:02:58,680 --> 00:02:56,739 tongue-in-cheek because we all know that 65 00:03:00,440 --> 00:02:58,690 scientific materialism has been shown 66 00:03:03,380 --> 00:03:00,450 over and over again to be 67 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:03,390 many things but at its core just bad 68 00:03:08,660 --> 00:03:06,090 science so I don't think that's going to 69 00:03:11,780 --> 00:03:08,670 be surprising to you but I think Emma's 70 00:03:14,059 --> 00:03:11,790 approach might be a little bit different 71 00:03:16,940 --> 00:03:14,069 and interesting to skeptical listeners 72 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:16,950 because Emma has a longtime background 73 00:03:22,790 --> 00:03:20,610 as a druid and a neo-pagan so we're 74 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:22,800 going to have some funds times talking 75 00:03:27,860 --> 00:03:24,330 about a whole bunch of different stuff 76 00:03:29,839 --> 00:03:27,870 let me start by saying Emma welcome to 77 00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:29,849 sceptical thank you so much for joining 78 00:03:35,090 --> 00:03:32,550 me thank you Alex it's a pleasure to be 79 00:03:38,180 --> 00:03:35,100 here I hope after your introduction 80 00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:38,190 there I can actually make some sense of 81 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:40,980 my thoughts instead of just open my arms 82 00:03:46,729 --> 00:03:43,350 and say listen this is how I experience 83 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:46,739 life you know I think you'll do quite 84 00:03:49,970 --> 00:03:48,690 fine you know one of the things that uh 85 00:03:52,699 --> 00:03:49,980 you know I have personally I have to 86 00:03:55,220 --> 00:03:52,709 give a compliment and a praise to my 87 00:03:56,870 --> 00:03:55,230 friend Mike Patterson who kind of nudged 88 00:03:58,160 --> 00:03:56,880 me into doing this interview and Mike 89 00:03:59,570 --> 00:03:58,170 has helped me with some other shows and 90 00:04:00,920 --> 00:03:59,580 he said wow you know this is really a 91 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:00,930 cool book I think it's right up your 92 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:03,450 alley and I looked and I go wow this is 93 00:04:09,289 --> 00:04:06,480 really interesting and at the same time 94 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:09,299 I was intrigued by the whole druid thing 95 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:11,609 is I think a lot of people will be but 96 00:04:14,479 --> 00:04:13,350 you don't have a lot of presentations 97 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:14,489 out there which is the other thing that 98 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:17,310 is exciting to me you know and really 99 00:04:22,580 --> 00:04:19,500 gets my juices going from a skeptical 100 00:04:24,770 --> 00:04:22,590 perspective because you are so brilliant 101 00:04:27,020 --> 00:04:24,780 I mean you just are and your book is 102 00:04:29,270 --> 00:04:27,030 great and yet I go and look for 103 00:04:31,310 --> 00:04:29,280 interviews for you or see you all over 104 00:04:32,930 --> 00:04:31,320 the web and you're not I mean there's a 105 00:04:35,719 --> 00:04:32,940 couple of presentations on YouTube but 106 00:04:37,340 --> 00:04:35,729 not a lot of kind of give-and-take in if 107 00:04:39,409 --> 00:04:37,350 you sound like wow this is really 108 00:04:41,719 --> 00:04:39,419 something that needs to be done so it's 109 00:04:44,450 --> 00:04:41,729 it really is great to have you on well 110 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:44,460 in part that is because I'm not out 111 00:04:52,610 --> 00:04:48,050 there much because what I found was for 112 00:04:56,629 --> 00:04:52,620 decades perhaps 25 years I was out there 113 00:04:58,820 --> 00:04:56,639 um but almost 10 years ago it started to 114 00:05:01,850 --> 00:04:58,830 feel as if being out in the public eye 115 00:05:07,659 --> 00:05:01,860 and everything all the compromises that 116 00:05:12,070 --> 00:05:07,669 that meant being um traveling a lot 117 00:05:16,179 --> 00:05:12,080 and being in environments where I didn't 118 00:05:19,809 --> 00:05:16,189 feel comfortable seemed to me to dilute 119 00:05:22,659 --> 00:05:19,819 my experience of and I'll have to say 120 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:22,669 God my experience of God and I know that 121 00:05:28,179 --> 00:05:25,310 in saying that word I'm provoking more 122 00:05:30,459 --> 00:05:28,189 queries and eyebrows raised as well but 123 00:05:33,339 --> 00:05:30,469 my experience of I was I was perhaps 124 00:05:35,909 --> 00:05:33,349 talking more than I was walking my 125 00:05:39,730 --> 00:05:35,919 experience of spirituality of God of 126 00:05:42,309 --> 00:05:39,740 presence in peace of my understanding of 127 00:05:44,740 --> 00:05:42,319 the world and I wanted to stop talking 128 00:05:47,529 --> 00:05:44,750 and do more walking do more walking in 129 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:47,539 that respect so I haven't been out there 130 00:05:52,570 --> 00:05:50,330 pushing myself also pushing yourself 131 00:05:57,010 --> 00:05:52,580 requires a measure of ego it requires a 132 00:06:00,570 --> 00:05:57,020 coherence of self a sanity within a 133 00:06:04,420 --> 00:06:00,580 world that works on a materialistic 134 00:06:06,999 --> 00:06:04,430 basis and I don't feel sane within that 135 00:06:12,369 --> 00:06:07,009 perspective I am saying within an 136 00:06:15,869 --> 00:06:12,379 animistic selfless coherent but my self 137 00:06:18,459 --> 00:06:15,879 is a little shaky in in the modern world 138 00:06:20,740 --> 00:06:18,469 which is why I'm not out there so much I 139 00:06:22,719 --> 00:06:20,750 can be out there a little bit insane you 140 00:06:24,670 --> 00:06:22,729 might find me a bit into thing you know 141 00:06:26,769 --> 00:06:24,680 you just said about ten things that we 142 00:06:28,659 --> 00:06:26,779 could pull apart different have a whole 143 00:06:30,939 --> 00:06:28,669 conversation about each one because it's 144 00:06:32,260 --> 00:06:30,949 awesome let me just frame this up for 145 00:06:34,779 --> 00:06:32,270 people a little bit to give a little 146 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:34,789 context what you're saying you are 147 00:06:39,490 --> 00:06:37,250 perhaps and at least according to my 148 00:06:41,110 --> 00:06:39,500 friends at Wikipedia and I'm really 149 00:06:43,119 --> 00:06:41,120 saying that tongue-in-cheek when I say 150 00:06:45,550 --> 00:06:43,129 that but you know you're one of the most 151 00:06:46,990 --> 00:06:45,560 famous druids in the world I mean you 152 00:06:49,389 --> 00:06:47,000 just have to live it that's the truth 153 00:06:51,459 --> 00:06:49,399 you know and you think I'm gonna jump 154 00:06:54,790 --> 00:06:51,469 right in there and say perhaps ten years 155 00:06:56,559 --> 00:06:54,800 ago I was well that's gonna stay there 156 00:06:58,029 --> 00:06:56,569 for a while so okay you're going to be 157 00:07:00,959 --> 00:06:58,039 humble and say other people have passed 158 00:07:04,809 --> 00:07:00,969 you by because you've made this very 159 00:07:07,540 --> 00:07:04,819 same decision to you know walk the walk 160 00:07:09,490 --> 00:07:07,550 and you can't be talking about the evils 161 00:07:11,230 --> 00:07:09,500 of materialism and then trying to pile 162 00:07:13,899 --> 00:07:11,240 on the end justifies the means 163 00:07:15,490 --> 00:07:13,909 materialism to get ahead which is young 164 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:15,500 stuff we're going to talk about but 165 00:07:19,210 --> 00:07:17,330 still I just want people to know I mean 166 00:07:23,230 --> 00:07:19,220 you are or 167 00:07:26,410 --> 00:07:23,240 were major figure in this thing that 168 00:07:28,330 --> 00:07:26,420 kind of reached critical mass in terms 169 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:28,340 of consciousness of a lot of people and 170 00:07:32,950 --> 00:07:30,290 then you go to your website and it says 171 00:07:35,890 --> 00:07:32,960 well my time within Druidry was enormous 172 00:07:39,220 --> 00:07:35,900 ly valuable I will no longer term myself 173 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:39,230 a druid so very cool and I think you 174 00:07:43,270 --> 00:07:40,910 just handled that in a beautiful way but 175 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:43,280 maybe feel people in a little bit on 176 00:07:49,420 --> 00:07:46,010 that back story and what you went 177 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:49,430 through and how you became and why you 178 00:07:56,350 --> 00:07:52,370 felt it was necessary to be so prominent 179 00:08:01,030 --> 00:07:56,360 in this druid community I think um I 180 00:08:03,610 --> 00:08:01,040 studied um philosophies spiritualities I 181 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:03,620 was the kind of kid in my teens who read 182 00:08:08,380 --> 00:08:05,810 bekenstein who read the Quran who read 183 00:08:13,270 --> 00:08:08,390 the Bible who read you know the Vedas I 184 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:13,280 just voraciously it explored everything 185 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:16,130 my husband went to Oxford University to 186 00:08:19,690 --> 00:08:18,050 read philosophy and I read his 187 00:08:24,130 --> 00:08:19,700 philosophy books which he didn't bother 188 00:08:26,050 --> 00:08:24,140 to read that was I was like 17 17 18 189 00:08:29,530 --> 00:08:26,060 years old and just exploring everything 190 00:08:32,250 --> 00:08:29,540 and asking all the key questions but I 191 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:32,260 was also brought up my parents were are 192 00:08:37,380 --> 00:08:35,090 well they're they're coming towards you 193 00:08:39,219 --> 00:08:37,390 know they're in their retirement now and 194 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:39,229 meandering in different worlds but 195 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:41,930 they're my mother's a botanist my father 196 00:08:47,860 --> 00:08:44,570 is an ornithologist and so I was brought 197 00:08:50,530 --> 00:08:47,870 up in the wild I was brought up with an 198 00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:50,540 understanding with of teaching that 199 00:08:55,180 --> 00:08:53,120 nature is the most important thing it's 200 00:08:59,050 --> 00:08:55,190 what you focus on is what life is about 201 00:09:01,810 --> 00:08:59,060 so my exploration my search for God went 202 00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:01,820 hand in hand with my immersion in the 203 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:03,950 nonhuman world the natural world and the 204 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:06,650 study of it my father is very much a 205 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:09,760 scientific ornithologist he's he's a 206 00:09:17,950 --> 00:09:14,450 he's not sentimental in any way so when 207 00:09:25,410 --> 00:09:17,960 I I lived in Japan for a while and found 208 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:25,420 that there the spirituality the deep 209 00:09:30,759 --> 00:09:28,910 experience of life the understanding the 210 00:09:32,859 --> 00:09:30,769 sacred the aesthetic 211 00:09:34,299 --> 00:09:32,869 really touched my heart I started to 212 00:09:36,910 --> 00:09:34,309 understand it but I started thinking 213 00:09:39,699 --> 00:09:36,920 well these aren't my ancestors Shinto is 214 00:09:42,519 --> 00:09:39,709 very close to Druidry in that respect 215 00:09:44,769 --> 00:09:42,529 it's a it's very much about ancestors 216 00:09:47,739 --> 00:09:44,779 but within the context of the natural 217 00:09:52,269 --> 00:09:47,749 world so I came back to England to seek 218 00:09:55,509 --> 00:09:52,279 out my own ancestors my ancestry and to 219 00:10:00,009 --> 00:09:55,519 find a religion spirituality a 220 00:10:03,879 --> 00:10:00,019 philosophy of being that was from this 221 00:10:06,249 --> 00:10:03,889 land I had a friend in in Maine druid in 222 00:10:09,910 --> 00:10:06,259 a student of mine who's now in Maine in 223 00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:09,920 the state and he said to me once when he 224 00:10:15,359 --> 00:10:11,660 came over to England he said I 225 00:10:18,669 --> 00:10:15,369 understand that what you mean Druidry is 226 00:10:20,350 --> 00:10:18,679 this landscape in England it's the 227 00:10:22,439 --> 00:10:20,360 English land with or the British 228 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:22,449 landscape it's the mud trees the wind 229 00:10:28,239 --> 00:10:25,970 it's the religion of these islands yeah 230 00:10:29,799 --> 00:10:28,249 okay but that's that's also kind of 231 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:29,809 tricky I mean it's kind of like 232 00:10:34,030 --> 00:10:31,970 Christianity you know it sounds good and 233 00:10:38,319 --> 00:10:34,040 then when you start really pulling apart 234 00:10:40,359 --> 00:10:38,329 that history and the Celtic past and it 235 00:10:42,639 --> 00:10:40,369 gets really kind of blurry about who 236 00:10:44,289 --> 00:10:42,649 those people really were so I totally 237 00:10:46,660 --> 00:10:44,299 get what you're saying on one level but 238 00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:46,670 on another level but you've come up 239 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:47,839 you've come at it from the wrong 240 00:10:53,319 --> 00:10:49,730 perspective if I might say you've come 241 00:10:56,259 --> 00:10:53,329 at it from up from the perspective of an 242 00:10:58,749 --> 00:10:56,269 accepted narrative instead of the 243 00:11:01,539 --> 00:10:58,759 perspective of experience and then use 244 00:11:05,079 --> 00:11:01,549 the word to describe the experience so 245 00:11:07,210 --> 00:11:05,089 Druidry is the earliest word we have for 246 00:11:09,129 --> 00:11:07,220 the religion of these lands we 247 00:11:11,650 --> 00:11:09,139 understand one of the earliest texts 248 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:11,660 describes story for Caesar describes 249 00:11:15,549 --> 00:11:13,850 Druidry is coming from these islands 250 00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:15,559 whether that's true or not doesn't 251 00:11:22,299 --> 00:11:19,910 matter but we can't talk about Druidry 252 00:11:24,609 --> 00:11:22,309 as the religion of the Celts when we 253 00:11:26,109 --> 00:11:24,619 don't really understand the Celts aren't 254 00:11:29,909 --> 00:11:26,119 really a part of these islands at all 255 00:11:32,139 --> 00:11:29,919 that's just a political you know after 256 00:11:34,179 --> 00:11:32,149 description it's not about what was 257 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:34,189 happening here two-and-a-half thousand 258 00:11:36,699 --> 00:11:34,730 years ago 259 00:11:38,169 --> 00:11:36,709 point well-taken point well taken but 260 00:11:39,789 --> 00:11:38,179 just let me interject because it's kind 261 00:11:42,429 --> 00:11:39,799 of an interesting dialogue I've never 262 00:11:44,259 --> 00:11:42,439 really had this with anyone in the past 263 00:11:44,750 --> 00:11:44,269 but you're hitting on something I think 264 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:44,760 is 265 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:47,610 kind of interesting see like for example 266 00:11:54,110 --> 00:11:50,880 I do not have that strong sense of 267 00:11:56,780 --> 00:11:54,120 connection to place that a lot of people 268 00:11:58,370 --> 00:11:56,790 do and I totally respect that I totally 269 00:12:00,200 --> 00:11:58,380 respect where you're coming from and 270 00:12:02,390 --> 00:12:00,210 respect in the sense that I think it's 271 00:12:04,940 --> 00:12:02,400 completely genuine and I think some 272 00:12:08,540 --> 00:12:04,950 people experience that at a very deep 273 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:08,550 level and I think other people don't you 274 00:12:13,820 --> 00:12:11,760 know so do you know where I'm coming 275 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:13,830 from I mean like one thing I always get 276 00:12:16,940 --> 00:12:15,450 is people go oh you know because of a 277 00:12:20,510 --> 00:12:16,950 Greek name and I was raised in a very 278 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:20,520 Greek community in Chicago Illinois here 279 00:12:23,540 --> 00:12:21,690 in the United States but there was a 280 00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:23,550 strong connection and everyone spoke 281 00:12:27,830 --> 00:12:25,680 Greek and went back degrees I've never 282 00:12:29,890 --> 00:12:27,840 felt any connection or been to Greece I 283 00:12:33,260 --> 00:12:29,900 never any interesting going degrees so 284 00:12:36,350 --> 00:12:33,270 it's it I don't feel like that holds me 285 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:36,360 back spiritually it's just kind of my 286 00:12:40,490 --> 00:12:38,850 nature so the druid thing always seems 287 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:40,500 like exactly what you're saying kind of 288 00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:43,650 connected to place which is cool but how 289 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:45,000 do you make that how do you pull that 290 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:47,490 apart that's interesting because the 291 00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:50,010 when I study when I used to teach 292 00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:51,600 surgery around the world in the States 293 00:12:57,530 --> 00:12:55,440 in South America and in Australia all 294 00:13:00,250 --> 00:12:57,540 around you know the sort of the Celtic 295 00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:00,260 or the British diaspora the druidic 296 00:13:07,490 --> 00:13:03,830 diaspora and I would be teaching people 297 00:13:09,770 --> 00:13:07,500 to explore the context their ecology the 298 00:13:11,150 --> 00:13:09,780 land that they're living in while at the 299 00:13:12,890 --> 00:13:11,160 same time understanding their the only 300 00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:12,900 way they can reach Druidry is through 301 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:16,320 their ancestors because surgery is not 302 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:18,810 the religion of that landscape it's the 303 00:13:23,420 --> 00:13:21,450 religion of perhaps their ancestors for 304 00:13:26,510 --> 00:13:23,430 me and Britain I get to jury through the 305 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:26,520 landscape and to some extent through my 306 00:13:34,910 --> 00:13:29,850 ancestors I say to some extent because I 307 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:34,920 can't wave a line then it is clear in my 308 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:38,370 head that goes back name by name by name 309 00:13:42,340 --> 00:13:40,130 by name you know thousands 310 00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:42,350 thousands of years I understand you know 311 00:13:46,390 --> 00:13:44,660 I honor my ancestors and the names of my 312 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:46,400 ancestors and where they come back where 313 00:13:50,530 --> 00:13:48,050 they come from but I only know that two 314 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:50,540 and A two and a half centuries back to 315 00:13:55,870 --> 00:13:52,970 the beginning of the 19th century so 316 00:13:59,530 --> 00:13:55,880 from there it becomes abstract it 317 00:14:03,460 --> 00:13:59,540 becomes a merge of blood of culture of 318 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:03,470 heritage of value of land of the smell 319 00:14:08,860 --> 00:14:06,050 of the rain the taste of the mud all of 320 00:14:10,590 --> 00:14:08,870 these things kind of meld into an 321 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:10,600 understanding which for me is 322 00:14:17,050 --> 00:14:14,450 spirituality is my religion but thinking 323 00:14:21,940 --> 00:14:17,060 about Christianity Christianity makes no 324 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:21,950 sense to me from that same if that makes 325 00:14:26,170 --> 00:14:23,630 no sense to me because it's not of this 326 00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:26,180 landscape but then if I go into a local 327 00:14:31,090 --> 00:14:29,180 Church of England church that's maybe 328 00:14:34,450 --> 00:14:31,100 almost a thousand years old 329 00:14:37,260 --> 00:14:34,460 built in sort of Norman stone in a rural 330 00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:37,270 environment in the middle of England I 331 00:14:41,170 --> 00:14:39,710 can look around and that feels like my 332 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:41,180 heritage because there's a very little 333 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:43,730 Middle Eastern culture there's very 334 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:46,330 little medieval Mi'kmaq Middle Eastern 335 00:14:52,750 --> 00:14:48,890 tradition or story there it's all 336 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:52,760 entirely diluted into Englishness and 337 00:14:59,860 --> 00:14:57,050 most of the the festivals that the end 338 00:15:02,500 --> 00:14:59,870 of the harvest festival even Easter all 339 00:15:04,630 --> 00:15:02,510 of these festivals are saturated with 340 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:04,640 English culture with English heritage 341 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:08,330 and that I can understand it's when we 342 00:15:14,770 --> 00:15:11,930 get into the mythic it determined to be 343 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:14,780 real characters of the stories that I 344 00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:16,850 get into trouble but then I get into 345 00:15:20,770 --> 00:15:18,500 trouble when we talk about Welsh 346 00:15:23,050 --> 00:15:20,780 mythology because I don't understand 347 00:15:24,790 --> 00:15:23,060 that it's not of the landscape of my 348 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:24,800 blood which is very much English it's 349 00:15:29,230 --> 00:15:27,170 here it's in you know London that the 350 00:15:31,510 --> 00:15:29,240 counties around London and where I'm 351 00:15:33,940 --> 00:15:31,520 living here it doesn't go up into world 352 00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:33,950 Wales or Scotland so it's very local 353 00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:37,550 very very local and indeed in terms of 354 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:43,040 culture language and the the way the 355 00:15:48,460 --> 00:15:45,290 people are in England I always think 356 00:15:51,130 --> 00:15:48,470 that a quality of the English nature of 357 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:51,140 English nature of the English the nature 358 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:52,110 of the English 359 00:15:58,670 --> 00:15:54,690 is about whatever works we do what works 360 00:16:01,280 --> 00:15:58,680 whatever works is fine and some people 361 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:01,290 deride paganism for being a kind of a 362 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:03,360 pick-and-mix religion you take a bit 363 00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:06,330 from here you take a bit from there but 364 00:16:10,850 --> 00:16:09,390 fine I don't see what's wrong with that 365 00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:10,860 although in practice 366 00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:12,870 I don't rock it I don't understand it 367 00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:15,960 much but in theory I understand it 368 00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:19,230 because it's about whatever works let me 369 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:21,300 push it a little bit further because I 370 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:23,460 think this is just such a fascinating 371 00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:27,210 point to me it seems like the lines get 372 00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:29,550 really blurry as soon as we go back a 373 00:16:35,450 --> 00:16:31,260 little bit like let's take ancestor 374 00:16:39,770 --> 00:16:35,460 worship I am totally in connection with 375 00:16:41,930 --> 00:16:39,780 my ancestors I feel their presence I ask 376 00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:41,940 for their help and guidance I've never 377 00:16:49,250 --> 00:16:43,920 said this on this yell before but that's 378 00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:49,260 ok I also feel drawn to a neem Karoli 379 00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:51,840 Baba from India right and I have the 380 00:16:57,410 --> 00:16:54,480 strange connection with yoga that's just 381 00:16:58,790 --> 00:16:57,420 popped up in my life and Hindu practice 382 00:17:00,620 --> 00:16:58,800 I don't know where that's coming from 383 00:17:04,449 --> 00:17:00,630 and I haven't explored that fully but 384 00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:04,459 that is there in an undeniable way so 385 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:07,920 I'm not you know resistant to anything 386 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:10,290 you're saying I'm just saying for me and 387 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:13,050 for a lot of people I know it just isn't 388 00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:15,420 that clean-cut where I can say gee you 389 00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:18,600 know I feel this connection and man my 390 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:21,000 connection seemed to be very very 391 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:23,280 blurred and in a lot of other ways that 392 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:26,730 feel totally good as I connect to them 393 00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:28,410 they don't feel out of place or anything 394 00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:31,350 but and I live in Southern California in 395 00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:33,480 San Diego man well I remember when I 396 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:35,190 first came here I felt a connection to 397 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:37,050 this place you know I felt like this is 398 00:17:40,190 --> 00:17:38,730 more where I'm supposed to be I don't 399 00:17:41,690 --> 00:17:40,200 know if this is the ultimate place where 400 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:41,700 I'm supposed to be but this is more 401 00:17:47,090 --> 00:17:43,890 where I'm supposed to be than Chicago 402 00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:47,100 where I grew up yeah and I grew up in 403 00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:49,740 Denmark in Spain and South America on 404 00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:52,200 the far east and I was in Chicago for a 405 00:18:01,150 --> 00:17:54,960 few years as a child so all over the 406 00:18:03,860 --> 00:18:01,160 place and actually it was my desire to 407 00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:03,870 connect with my ancestors that brought 408 00:18:08,540 --> 00:18:05,430 me to England 409 00:18:09,770 --> 00:18:08,550 to commit to living in England my 410 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:09,780 brother is in the States he's a 411 00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:13,290 professor at Penn State College in 412 00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:16,560 Pennsylvania and my son is in the States 413 00:18:24,830 --> 00:18:20,510 and so I have a sense of that global 414 00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:24,840 identity but for myself for my own need 415 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:27,270 and I think this is specific I think 416 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:29,730 there are people that would strive for a 417 00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:32,370 connection with gold godness deity 418 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:34,020 whatever that means whatever you 419 00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:36,090 understand that to be and there are some 420 00:18:40,580 --> 00:18:39,060 that don't there are some who strive to 421 00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:40,590 connect through their ancestors through 422 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:42,480 the land and some who strive through 423 00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:45,050 their reason through community through 424 00:18:50,510 --> 00:18:48,030 archetypes or or other kinds of culture 425 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:50,520 mythology for me ancestor was where 426 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:53,450 ancestry was very important and I would 427 00:19:00,320 --> 00:18:57,810 rationally if looking at it in a 428 00:19:02,990 --> 00:19:00,330 psychological perspective that must be I 429 00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:03,000 would imagine connected to the fact that 430 00:19:07,730 --> 00:19:05,520 I have a genetic weakness in my nervous 431 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:07,740 system which my grandmother has my aunt 432 00:19:13,910 --> 00:19:09,650 has and it goes back through my 433 00:19:16,010 --> 00:19:13,920 grandmother's so that has inspired me to 434 00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:16,020 understand my ancestry perhaps better 435 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:18,840 than if I were fighting Fidan and and 436 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:21,570 had no need to to see where these things 437 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:25,350 came from but I think it's it's like 438 00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:28,890 anything once you start to explore it 439 00:19:34,850 --> 00:19:30,990 you either grok it it either feeds you 440 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:34,860 or it doesn't now and I find that a lot 441 00:19:38,750 --> 00:19:36,330 of people once they start to know the 442 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:38,760 names of their ancestors start to know 443 00:19:44,330 --> 00:19:41,010 where they come from start to breathe in 444 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:44,340 and eat the food of that place they 445 00:19:47,930 --> 00:19:45,930 start to find a deeper connection 446 00:19:50,510 --> 00:19:47,940 without that they don't know that 447 00:19:53,210 --> 00:19:50,520 there's a superficiality and unrooted 448 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:53,220 miss about their being for once they 449 00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:55,890 start to find those roots they can find 450 00:20:01,030 --> 00:19:57,810 a deep nourishment not everybody does 451 00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:01,040 but sometimes that can be an enormous um 452 00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:03,900 an enormous source of nourishment and 453 00:20:10,790 --> 00:20:06,720 learning and I would recommend it to 454 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:10,800 anybody okay so I I'm stuck on this now 455 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:13,050 and I can't let it go 456 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:15,210 what about reincarnation I mean a lot of 457 00:20:21,049 --> 00:20:18,930 people have direct experience with 458 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:21,059 memories of their past life I don't want 459 00:20:25,820 --> 00:20:22,650 to judge that one way or another other 460 00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:25,830 than to say the best science that we 461 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:27,750 have in terms of looking at that like 462 00:20:33,370 --> 00:20:30,150 the folks at University of Virginia Jim 463 00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:33,380 Tucker and before that dr. Ian Stevenson 464 00:20:39,049 --> 00:20:36,390 undeniable I mean just seems to be a 465 00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:39,059 reality and it's been passed down and 466 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:41,520 all just about virtually every wisdom 467 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:44,130 tradition including including Druidry 468 00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:47,010 right so reincarnation takes that in a 469 00:20:50,210 --> 00:20:48,540 whole different direction I mean forget 470 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:50,220 about you know connection to the land 471 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:53,250 the soil you're all over the globe some 472 00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:55,500 people would say even outside of this 473 00:21:02,840 --> 00:20:59,520 this earth thing you know in terms of 474 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:02,850 these lives so isn't it again kind of a 475 00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:05,610 fuzzy line where we draw and say and it 476 00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,200 just sounds a little off whenever I hear 477 00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:09,360 someone say blood you know I'm like well 478 00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:10,710 wait a minute what are you talking about 479 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:13,350 isn't it kind of bigger than that it is 480 00:21:18,830 --> 00:21:16,050 very much bigger than that um and I 481 00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:18,840 think okay when you talk about blood 482 00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:22,640 you're talking about things which are um 483 00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:28,740 immediate sensory connection so I love 484 00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:30,030 the desert 485 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:33,120 I love the Mediterranean coast 486 00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:36,510 I love the forest down you know 300 487 00:21:41,090 --> 00:21:39,540 miles away I all of that I love it but 488 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:41,100 what's right here at the moment is the 489 00:21:45,799 --> 00:21:43,290 word of the table that I'm sitting at 490 00:21:48,049 --> 00:21:45,809 that's a deep immediate sensory 491 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:48,059 experience it doesn't mean that other 492 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:50,130 things aren't important I'm not 493 00:21:57,220 --> 00:21:53,370 connected to other things but also I I 494 00:21:59,570 --> 00:21:57,230 have had what I believed were clear 495 00:22:01,330 --> 00:21:59,580 experiences within myself and with other 496 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:01,340 people within other people of 497 00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:05,250 reincarnation of stories that made sense 498 00:22:11,030 --> 00:22:07,230 that connected in ways that we couldn't 499 00:22:17,630 --> 00:22:11,040 have understood and yet now I don't 500 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:17,640 believe in reincarnation I have a sense 501 00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:21,240 of the mindedness of nature of the 502 00:22:26,780 --> 00:22:24,960 universe the minded coherence or the 503 00:22:29,390 --> 00:22:26,790 mindedness mind if coherence of the 504 00:22:30,499 --> 00:22:29,400 wholeness of nature of all of the 505 00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:30,509 universe and 506 00:22:37,189 --> 00:22:35,039 in that we have coherences of mind that 507 00:22:39,979 --> 00:22:37,199 are in a thousand different ways 508 00:22:44,989 --> 00:22:39,989 including the mind of humanity the 509 00:22:47,659 --> 00:22:44,999 mindedness of humanity and then so to 510 00:22:50,689 --> 00:22:47,669 have human beings human personalities 511 00:22:53,959 --> 00:22:50,699 entities or stuck in their own sticky 512 00:22:56,619 --> 00:22:53,969 individual being and then we have those 513 00:22:59,419 --> 00:22:56,629 edges that spill out from those 514 00:23:00,829 --> 00:22:59,429 individual beings into the wholeness of 515 00:23:03,049 --> 00:23:00,839 families the wholeness of blood the 516 00:23:05,269 --> 00:23:03,059 wholeness of communities the wholeness 517 00:23:08,019 --> 00:23:05,279 that happens when you you love and merge 518 00:23:10,819 --> 00:23:08,029 with someone in that melting Way of 519 00:23:14,509 --> 00:23:10,829 connection and then you have you know 520 00:23:17,689 --> 00:23:14,519 the broader that race tribe nation 521 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:17,699 whatever it may be some of those words 522 00:23:26,299 --> 00:23:23,369 work some of them don't but I think we 523 00:23:29,269 --> 00:23:26,309 can connect into that mindedness and 524 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:29,279 pick up on coherences pick up on 525 00:23:35,749 --> 00:23:33,089 patterns pick up on stories and we hear 526 00:23:39,979 --> 00:23:35,759 the ones that make sense to us we hear 527 00:23:43,969 --> 00:23:39,989 the ones which in some ways are mirror 528 00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:43,979 repeating patterns or ways that we are 529 00:23:50,109 --> 00:23:46,559 perceiving the world in patterns and 530 00:23:52,869 --> 00:23:50,119 that's what I think we probably 531 00:23:54,229 --> 00:23:52,879 translate we interpret to be 532 00:24:01,609 --> 00:23:54,239 reincarnation 533 00:24:05,019 --> 00:24:01,619 because I think nature in itself doesn't 534 00:24:09,739 --> 00:24:05,029 have a chronological process of time 535 00:24:11,959 --> 00:24:09,749 that would really make that work you 536 00:24:15,019 --> 00:24:11,969 can't have a point there in terms of our 537 00:24:17,389 --> 00:24:15,029 understanding of time in this linear 538 00:24:19,489 --> 00:24:17,399 notion we know is probably not accurate 539 00:24:22,129 --> 00:24:19,499 in some ways that we don't totally 540 00:24:24,469 --> 00:24:22,139 understand but I have to kind of push on 541 00:24:26,709 --> 00:24:24,479 that a little bit because I mean this 542 00:24:29,389 --> 00:24:26,719 path on on this show has been kind of 543 00:24:31,489 --> 00:24:29,399 one foot in two worlds one foot in the 544 00:24:33,169 --> 00:24:31,499 science world and the best science we 545 00:24:35,409 --> 00:24:33,179 can understand and at the same time 546 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:35,419 discarding the science that is just 547 00:24:39,739 --> 00:24:37,529 ridiculous and is pulling us in the 548 00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:39,749 wrong direction which is something you 549 00:24:42,649 --> 00:24:41,279 do quite wonderfully I don't want to get 550 00:24:44,060 --> 00:24:42,659 too far away from the book folks because 551 00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:44,070 I want you going by the book 552 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:45,000 and other books because they're 553 00:24:49,460 --> 00:24:47,010 wonderful but what I really want to do 554 00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,470 is introduce you to Emma and our broader 555 00:24:55,970 --> 00:24:51,840 ideas but I just want you to want folks 556 00:24:59,360 --> 00:24:55,980 to know the book is very very well 557 00:25:02,450 --> 00:24:59,370 structured coherent as a strong as cases 558 00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:02,460 you'll find for kind of dismantling this 559 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:05,400 silly materialism and replacing it with 560 00:25:12,730 --> 00:25:09,090 a very viable and philosophically strong 561 00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:12,740 argument for animism but I digress 562 00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:16,520 because I can't help but talking about 563 00:25:21,940 --> 00:25:18,720 reincarnation because I get this a lot 564 00:25:24,820 --> 00:25:21,950 from folks and you know in the real 565 00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:24,830 intellectualizing of it within like the 566 00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:27,840 parapsychology community they call into 567 00:25:32,930 --> 00:25:29,760 play supersize you ever heard of super 568 00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:32,940 Sai no heaven well it's basically the 569 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:34,500 same idea that you just said kind of 570 00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:36,690 Akashic records hey we're all plugged 571 00:25:41,660 --> 00:25:39,360 into the consciousness field everywhere 572 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:41,670 and we can draw you know this and that 573 00:25:47,780 --> 00:25:44,970 and that's how these stories of 574 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:47,790 reincarnation happen I just have to 575 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:50,690 point out to you that the scant bit of 576 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:52,890 scientific evidence we have the best 577 00:25:57,850 --> 00:25:54,570 we've tried to collect it and science 578 00:26:00,350 --> 00:25:57,860 now here in the sense being a method of 579 00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:00,360 collecting data not a position statement 580 00:26:04,550 --> 00:26:02,880 not saying this is how the bangs are but 581 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:04,560 just hey these are some tools we can use 582 00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:07,730 to strip away our biases in that method 583 00:26:11,060 --> 00:26:09,750 what these guys at university of 584 00:26:13,660 --> 00:26:11,070 virginia did one of the things they did 585 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:13,670 that's just really kind of stunning is 586 00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:16,890 they not only get people that have these 587 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:18,600 detailed memories like you're talking 588 00:26:22,550 --> 00:26:20,730 about so let's find a child four or five 589 00:26:25,270 --> 00:26:22,560 years old and the child reports I 590 00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:25,280 remember being in this town in this 591 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:27,480 village that I've never visited a 592 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:29,130 hundred years a hundred miles away and 593 00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:30,690 they go there and all the things line up 594 00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:32,880 but what they did on the physical level 595 00:26:37,670 --> 00:26:34,980 that's really hard to get around with 596 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:37,680 the supersize idea is all in a 597 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:39,210 significant number these people they 598 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:42,530 found birthmarks that correspond to 599 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:44,610 traumatic experiences like getting shot 600 00:26:50,170 --> 00:26:47,490 or being stabbed as being the the 601 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:50,180 incident that caused their death and 602 00:26:56,270 --> 00:26:53,970 there there's just pretty overwhelming 603 00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:56,280 evidence that that stuff lines up again 604 00:26:59,690 --> 00:26:57,840 these guys have looked at its scientific 605 00:27:01,070 --> 00:26:59,700 so I don't know if the science really 606 00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:01,080 points in the direction you're saying 607 00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:06,600 but that's exactly where my problem is 608 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:10,110 with the scientific method or the knots 609 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:10,890 I don't matter 610 00:27:21,890 --> 00:27:16,370 the scientific perspective is that it is 611 00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:21,900 so comprehensively limited by human 612 00:27:27,710 --> 00:27:25,320 perspective per step perception so what 613 00:27:30,260 --> 00:27:27,720 we're saying is that this is what we as 614 00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:30,270 human beings see but that's not what 615 00:27:36,170 --> 00:27:33,780 nature is in itself and of course this 616 00:27:39,170 --> 00:27:36,180 is quite a journey - for me the journey 617 00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:39,180 what I would call God the wholeness of 618 00:27:45,020 --> 00:27:41,550 the universe the everything the journey 619 00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:45,030 to God is about finding a way of our 620 00:27:53,260 --> 00:27:47,760 almost impossible an ecstatically 621 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:53,270 brilliant glorious hopeless wonderful 622 00:27:59,360 --> 00:27:57,290 obsessive way of getting through the 623 00:28:00,710 --> 00:27:59,370 limitation let me interject something 624 00:28:02,210 --> 00:28:00,720 let me tell you because we'll get right 625 00:28:03,950 --> 00:28:02,220 to the point here I have an interview 626 00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:03,960 coming up and I just booked it and I was 627 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:05,670 really resistant to booking it with this 628 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:07,650 woman because some of her ideas some way 629 00:28:12,350 --> 00:28:10,890 out there but it's cool and I respect 630 00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:12,360 where she's coming from but she's had 631 00:28:17,690 --> 00:28:14,880 hundreds of near-death experiences and 632 00:28:19,630 --> 00:28:17,700 in those near-death experiences she 633 00:28:22,010 --> 00:28:19,640 claims that she's connected with Jesus 634 00:28:24,620 --> 00:28:22,020 Jesus Jesus Jesus not Christ 635 00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:24,630 consciousness some kind of Jesus and 636 00:28:29,030 --> 00:28:27,120 Walt Disney as well which really then 637 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:29,040 throws you for a loop and I've spoken 638 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:30,810 with a lot of folks and I don't consider 639 00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:33,690 them you know crazy you're weird or any 640 00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:34,320 of that stuff 641 00:28:39,470 --> 00:28:37,110 but have different interpretations of 642 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:39,480 their spiritually transformative 643 00:28:43,130 --> 00:28:41,730 experiences their relationship with God 644 00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:43,140 all the stuff you're saying 645 00:28:49,940 --> 00:28:47,100 so obviously science is limited you know 646 00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:49,950 but what the are we supposed to do 647 00:28:54,860 --> 00:28:52,230 how are we supposed to sort this thing 648 00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:54,870 out is everyone just exposed to say well 649 00:28:59,900 --> 00:28:57,000 whatever my personal experience is I 650 00:29:02,180 --> 00:28:59,910 tell you that is wrought with problems - 651 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:02,190 I've interviewed a lot of people who 652 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:04,770 take their spiritual experiences and 653 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:06,930 turn it into some kind of cultish crazy 654 00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:09,330 kind of thing so I don't know what we're 655 00:29:12,390 --> 00:29:10,510 supposed to do 656 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:12,400 that's I think I think that's that's 657 00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:14,530 absolutely the key what we are supposed 658 00:29:19,710 --> 00:29:17,350 to do perhaps what am I to say Who am I 659 00:29:22,919 --> 00:29:19,720 to say but what we're supposed to do 660 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:22,929 maybe is not to take our personal 661 00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:27,970 experience and lay it down as some truth 662 00:29:34,409 --> 00:29:31,540 it's not it's our experience from our 663 00:29:36,750 --> 00:29:34,419 individual perspective from our point of 664 00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:36,760 perception and what we can if we could 665 00:29:44,270 --> 00:29:39,070 understand the mindedness of the 666 00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:44,280 universe as being patterns beyond limit 667 00:29:49,260 --> 00:29:47,260 but so many patterns as we come having 668 00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:49,270 the vast patterns from the you know 669 00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:51,340 outside of our ability to imagine 670 00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:54,190 through two patterns within the human 671 00:30:00,659 --> 00:29:56,320 mind we often you hear that people say 672 00:30:03,539 --> 00:30:00,669 time and again it's a small world and we 673 00:30:04,890 --> 00:30:03,549 find doppelgangers we see always found 674 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:04,900 someone I knew someone who looked just 675 00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:06,850 like you and you think no everyone's 676 00:30:10,919 --> 00:30:08,590 unique well we're not there aren't that 677 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:10,929 many kinds of people there aren't that 678 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:13,450 many kinds of experience there aren't 679 00:30:21,390 --> 00:30:17,290 that many kinds of perception or idea 680 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:21,400 actually the human mind human mindedness 681 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:24,130 the wholeness of humanity is not that 682 00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:26,290 diverse we think it's extraordinary 683 00:30:31,919 --> 00:30:27,640 because we're sitting in the middle of 684 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:31,929 it and we're too small to see how small 685 00:30:36,750 --> 00:30:34,450 it is we think it's extraordinary and 686 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:36,760 vast and enormous and glorious but 687 00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:40,330 actually it's not that diverse so when 688 00:30:46,590 --> 00:30:44,049 as human beings we are able to just slip 689 00:30:49,230 --> 00:30:46,600 out of our individual perception our 690 00:30:51,090 --> 00:30:49,240 individual separate itself and touch 691 00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:51,100 into the wholeness of something beyond 692 00:30:56,909 --> 00:30:53,919 touch into the wholeness of a part of 693 00:30:58,740 --> 00:30:56,919 the mindedness of humanity then what are 694 00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:58,750 we going to see when I see a mess of 695 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:01,440 caves but if you look at the meadow 696 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:04,210 stand in the meadow and look down what 697 00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:06,130 are you going to see you're going to see 698 00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:08,260 first of all the things that you 699 00:31:12,150 --> 00:31:10,480 recognize you're not going to see the 700 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:12,160 chaos and the patterns that you've never 701 00:31:15,210 --> 00:31:14,049 seen before you're going to see the 702 00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:15,220 greens you're going to see The Beatles 703 00:31:18,539 --> 00:31:16,990 you're going to see the spider's webs 704 00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:18,549 because those are things that you 705 00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:20,980 understand that you've seen before so 706 00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:23,830 when we look out the wholeness into 707 00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:28,240 the the wild nurse of the mindedness of 708 00:31:33,660 --> 00:31:31,390 humanity we will see the things that 709 00:31:36,060 --> 00:31:33,670 make sense to us consciously or 710 00:31:38,190 --> 00:31:36,070 subconsciously through our conscious 711 00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:38,200 awareness or down through the shadows on 712 00:31:41,940 --> 00:31:39,670 the edges of our awareness of our 713 00:31:44,060 --> 00:31:41,950 understanding and that's what we'll pick 714 00:31:46,830 --> 00:31:44,070 up on and then as we bring it into our 715 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:46,840 individuated self us our own little 716 00:31:52,290 --> 00:31:49,450 coherence of mind as a human being will 717 00:31:54,540 --> 00:31:52,300 interpret that into the stories patterns 718 00:31:57,900 --> 00:31:54,550 the language that makes sense to us that 719 00:32:00,750 --> 00:31:57,910 we use to make sense of the world will 720 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:00,760 say oh that's a beetle or oh that is a 721 00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:04,690 cowboy or that's napoleon or this is 722 00:32:09,180 --> 00:32:06,670 Jesus or whatever it may be 723 00:32:11,670 --> 00:32:09,190 so we're finding patterns and we're 724 00:32:13,950 --> 00:32:11,680 interpreting them for ourselves in ways 725 00:32:17,310 --> 00:32:13,960 that makes sense because if we can't 726 00:32:19,620 --> 00:32:17,320 make sense then we're crazy well you 727 00:32:22,740 --> 00:32:19,630 know I'm right there with you but to me 728 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:22,750 that is the starting point that is the 729 00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:25,690 jumping-off point you know - for me with 730 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:28,510 science with trying to understand things 731 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:30,130 and Here I am defending science always 732 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:32,410 I'm always knocking down sides on the 733 00:32:37,380 --> 00:32:34,420 show but I have to defend science here 734 00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:37,390 for a minute what the promise of science 735 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:40,630 is is take everything you said and I 736 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:44,050 agree with it completely right it's but 737 00:32:50,940 --> 00:32:48,250 now what I want is I want to know you I 738 00:32:54,750 --> 00:32:50,950 want to know Emma's experience and I 739 00:32:57,630 --> 00:32:54,760 want to know a Mike's experience and I 740 00:33:00,510 --> 00:32:57,640 want to grow in enrich my experience 741 00:33:03,390 --> 00:33:00,520 from their experience and I want to find 742 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:03,400 out how this consensus reality because I 743 00:33:06,450 --> 00:33:04,930 know your experience is different than 744 00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:06,460 my experience but I know it also 745 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:08,710 overlaps in some interesting ways that 746 00:33:14,340 --> 00:33:12,130 might inform my decisions about 747 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:14,350 answering those big-picture questions of 748 00:33:18,690 --> 00:33:16,930 Who am I and why am I here so I can only 749 00:33:23,070 --> 00:33:18,700 answer those questions to myself but 750 00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:23,080 your experience could help me so when 751 00:33:27,630 --> 00:33:25,180 I'm trying to filter all these different 752 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:27,640 experiences and try and understand them 753 00:33:34,170 --> 00:33:31,930 and systematically use those I need some 754 00:33:36,660 --> 00:33:34,180 tools and here are some tools that kind 755 00:33:37,650 --> 00:33:36,670 of help I mean again I will we were 756 00:33:40,590 --> 00:33:37,660 talking about reincarnation 757 00:33:44,010 --> 00:33:40,600 if you ever read in Stevenson's work if 758 00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:44,020 you ever read Jim Tucker's work there's 759 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:47,440 a deep deep spirituality in what they're 760 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:49,690 saying but they're handling it just 761 00:33:54,090 --> 00:33:52,210 purely from an objective you know how do 762 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:54,100 these different experiences how are they 763 00:33:58,590 --> 00:33:56,290 similar how are they different without a 764 00:34:01,200 --> 00:33:58,600 lot of then we can figure out what that 765 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:01,210 means to us so do you get where I'm 766 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:04,090 coming from there no yes I do in that 767 00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:06,490 science is a tool and I would agree with 768 00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:11,110 that completely and I think when we use 769 00:34:19,649 --> 00:34:14,830 science as a tool it is useful when we 770 00:34:24,030 --> 00:34:19,659 use science as a way of determining 771 00:34:27,450 --> 00:34:24,040 truth because then we've meandered into 772 00:34:30,540 --> 00:34:27,460 um some kind of arrogance doesn't make 773 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:30,550 sense and the same is true of well 774 00:34:37,889 --> 00:34:34,810 pretty much everything oh it's all about 775 00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:37,899 tools even time Wicked's I'll use it 776 00:34:46,050 --> 00:34:41,250 even our understanding space is a tool 777 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:46,060 and while that'sthat's the problem with 778 00:34:51,690 --> 00:34:48,970 our materialistic assumptions with the 779 00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:51,700 assumption in our culture and the 780 00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:53,560 assumptions which have been laid down by 781 00:34:57,450 --> 00:34:56,830 monotheism's as well in our Western 782 00:34:59,850 --> 00:34:57,460 culture 783 00:35:01,200 --> 00:34:59,860 so the monotheism's and the science 784 00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:01,210 which is overlaid it and then 785 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:03,280 monotheism's on top of that science and 786 00:35:11,370 --> 00:35:06,090 again and again we come to this 787 00:35:15,450 --> 00:35:11,380 compacted assumption that stops us from 788 00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:15,460 understanding the universe without the 789 00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:18,160 need for truth without the need for a 790 00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:20,470 universal truth without the need to 791 00:35:25,290 --> 00:35:22,600 assert and determine that our 792 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:25,300 understanding is a universal truth it's 793 00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:28,810 all about relationships and tools to 794 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:30,460 make those relationships healthy 795 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:34,410 harmonious and productive creative 796 00:35:43,110 --> 00:35:39,310 sharing and the creativity so that our 797 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:43,120 being our relationships help instead of 798 00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:46,450 hinder um without getting too abstract I 799 00:35:50,789 --> 00:35:49,510 think what it also does is it taps into 800 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:50,799 this very 801 00:35:56,130 --> 00:35:53,890 a basic fundamental need we have for 802 00:35:57,599 --> 00:35:56,140 being in control or at least maintaining 803 00:35:59,370 --> 00:35:57,609 the illusion of being control I mean 804 00:36:01,109 --> 00:35:59,380 really when you break it down that's 805 00:36:03,359 --> 00:36:01,119 what materialism is all about it's 806 00:36:04,829 --> 00:36:03,369 saying hey everything is all these rules 807 00:36:06,059 --> 00:36:04,839 and these rules work perfectly and we 808 00:36:07,439 --> 00:36:06,069 can measure everything and everything's 809 00:36:11,069 --> 00:36:07,449 going to come out okay 810 00:36:13,380 --> 00:36:11,079 and I think everything beyond that only 811 00:36:16,469 --> 00:36:13,390 happens when we give up this sense of 812 00:36:20,309 --> 00:36:16,479 you know we're really not in control yes 813 00:36:22,679 --> 00:36:20,319 and I think that's the sadness about so 814 00:36:25,169 --> 00:36:22,689 much of science because it's taken us 815 00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:25,179 from do you know where Christianity in 816 00:36:30,809 --> 00:36:28,420 our British culture Christianity was so 817 00:36:32,849 --> 00:36:30,819 sick and it laid in the authorities and 818 00:36:35,429 --> 00:36:32,859 it knew exactly told everybody exactly 819 00:36:37,919 --> 00:36:35,439 what to think what to feel how to behave 820 00:36:41,459 --> 00:36:37,929 and then science has taken over and done 821 00:36:43,410 --> 00:36:41,469 exactly the same thing right that was a 822 00:36:45,749 --> 00:36:43,420 problem in Christianity and it's a 823 00:36:47,819 --> 00:36:45,759 problem in science and it's only when we 824 00:36:50,099 --> 00:36:47,829 break apart both of those that we can 825 00:36:53,489 --> 00:36:50,109 find the value in both of them and I 826 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:53,499 would take that back to Druidry and to 827 00:36:59,969 --> 00:36:56,650 Hinduism and to Islam and to everything 828 00:37:02,009 --> 00:36:59,979 I mean there are folk in paganism who 829 00:37:04,410 --> 00:37:02,019 are doing just the same thing right 830 00:37:07,169 --> 00:37:04,420 right I want to talk about that we all 831 00:37:09,989 --> 00:37:07,179 have this need or this ability or this 832 00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:09,999 blind spot to spin into orthodoxy right 833 00:37:14,759 --> 00:37:12,880 and to be rule-following you know I just 834 00:37:17,309 --> 00:37:14,769 tell me the answers I don't have to 835 00:37:19,109 --> 00:37:17,319 think too much yes and that's like 836 00:37:20,819 --> 00:37:19,119 saying well there's life in this death 837 00:37:22,859 --> 00:37:20,829 and you are alive well you're dead and 838 00:37:25,819 --> 00:37:22,869 that's it and there's black and there's 839 00:37:30,660 --> 00:37:25,829 white and there's you know but there's 840 00:37:32,729 --> 00:37:30,670 none of that there is just the being the 841 00:37:37,289 --> 00:37:32,739 experience of being in the mindedness in 842 00:37:39,479 --> 00:37:37,299 a profusion of patterns that we perceive 843 00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:39,489 in various different ways that's what 844 00:37:45,569 --> 00:37:43,150 it's about but that's a very that's for 845 00:37:48,660 --> 00:37:45,579 most people that that that's the way of 846 00:37:52,019 --> 00:37:48,670 madness because it's we use all these 847 00:37:55,319 --> 00:37:52,029 tools in order to tap down or smash down 848 00:37:57,900 --> 00:37:55,329 hammer down a reality and a reality I 849 00:38:02,749 --> 00:37:57,910 would define reality is that which we 850 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:02,759 need to believe in order to stay sane so 851 00:38:06,370 --> 00:38:04,250 it's got nothing 852 00:38:09,820 --> 00:38:06,380 to do with the actuality of the universe 853 00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:09,830 it's about what we need to believe is 854 00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:12,800 true in order to stay saying that's what 855 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:14,630 what helps us sleep at two o'clock in 856 00:38:18,070 --> 00:38:16,130 the morning when you wake up in your 857 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:18,080 like okay what what can I think if I 858 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:20,450 just help me go back to sleep right even 859 00:38:24,970 --> 00:38:22,730 that even even it just helps us to walk 860 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:24,980 through doorways it helps us to stand 861 00:38:29,980 --> 00:38:27,410 upright right great right commit into 862 00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:29,990 relationships or have children or you 863 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:32,420 know decisions and all of these things 864 00:38:41,590 --> 00:38:36,410 are what we handed down into a reality 865 00:38:44,020 --> 00:38:41,600 which is to to structured and then we 866 00:38:45,700 --> 00:38:44,030 pass off this reality is truth as 867 00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:45,710 universal truth I don't know if we need 868 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:47,510 that reality but but we do need that 869 00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:51,650 reality to function in some ways that we 870 00:38:57,100 --> 00:38:54,020 choose to function family is a great one 871 00:39:00,280 --> 00:38:57,110 you know if you want to have I have four 872 00:39:02,620 --> 00:39:00,290 kids I love my kids I love my wife we've 873 00:39:03,970 --> 00:39:02,630 been together for a long time my wife 874 00:39:05,350 --> 00:39:03,980 never listened ever listened to one 875 00:39:07,420 --> 00:39:05,360 skeptically you know she's never 876 00:39:08,740 --> 00:39:07,430 listened to one episode she's dealt me 877 00:39:12,730 --> 00:39:08,750 with the recording on the beginning but 878 00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:12,740 not her thing you know so yeah we have 879 00:39:19,330 --> 00:39:16,160 to function in a lot of different worlds 880 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:19,340 that sometimes overlap sometimes don't 881 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:22,130 and we're we're making those trade-offs 882 00:39:28,570 --> 00:39:25,010 right we are but I think this is this is 883 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:28,580 the issue with animism when I talk to 884 00:39:34,770 --> 00:39:31,130 people about animism they immediately 885 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:34,780 have an idea of animism which is 886 00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:39,290 language which is imagined which is 887 00:39:47,020 --> 00:39:42,880 perceived through that materialistic or 888 00:39:49,990 --> 00:39:47,030 monotheistic framework of reality that's 889 00:39:53,410 --> 00:39:50,000 honed that's hammered into something 890 00:39:55,210 --> 00:39:53,420 that's solid and atom ISM isn't like 891 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:55,220 that so from that perspective if you 892 00:39:59,980 --> 00:39:57,170 look at animism and animism is a very 893 00:40:01,540 --> 00:39:59,990 childish it's about believing there's 894 00:40:04,030 --> 00:40:01,550 this little spirit in a tree that you 895 00:40:05,890 --> 00:40:04,040 can talk to it's about you know 896 00:40:07,390 --> 00:40:05,900 believing the rocks if you sit and 897 00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:07,400 listen quietly enough they'll speak 898 00:40:12,310 --> 00:40:09,710 English to you as well and that's the 899 00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:12,320 fairytale definition that for the 900 00:40:16,180 --> 00:40:14,240 cartoonish definition of what people 901 00:40:18,010 --> 00:40:16,190 have about an ism right 902 00:40:20,380 --> 00:40:18,020 it's the same in Christianity like 903 00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:20,390 there's Jesus sitting on a cloud with a 904 00:40:25,930 --> 00:40:23,119 big beard it's it's exactly the same and 905 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:25,940 when people realize that that's not what 906 00:40:30,220 --> 00:40:28,910 animism is that's like people you say 907 00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:30,230 you can't say Christianity is about 908 00:40:33,940 --> 00:40:32,569 looking up to a cloud you know and 909 00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:33,950 there's a guy out there with a beard 910 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:36,710 well animism is not about looking at a 911 00:40:41,559 --> 00:40:39,410 stone or a river and thinking there's a 912 00:40:43,390 --> 00:40:41,569 spirit that you know if you could 913 00:40:45,099 --> 00:40:43,400 squeeze your eyes close a little bit 914 00:40:47,079 --> 00:40:45,109 you'll see a sort of a a mist 915 00:40:49,630 --> 00:40:47,089 that's the spirit and then you oh it's 916 00:40:52,270 --> 00:40:49,640 just ludicrous it's so childish that's 917 00:40:56,559 --> 00:40:52,280 not what it's about it's about the 918 00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:56,569 essence of what nature is made of is it 919 00:41:03,520 --> 00:40:59,839 made of that dualist perspective is it 920 00:41:07,260 --> 00:41:03,530 made of the ghost the consciousness the 921 00:41:11,470 --> 00:41:07,270 thinking and then there's the inert 922 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:11,480 molecules the subatomic particles and 923 00:41:16,510 --> 00:41:13,970 that's it so those ghosts those 924 00:41:18,460 --> 00:41:16,520 consciousnesses are only in special 925 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:18,470 parts of nature and the rest is just 926 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:23,210 thoughtless mindless dead or is from an 927 00:41:29,049 --> 00:41:25,130 animistic perspective it's the other 928 00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:29,059 extreme it take those to dwell into that 929 00:41:35,319 --> 00:41:32,000 duality those two ideas and smash them 930 00:41:37,630 --> 00:41:35,329 apart don't discard them but smash them 931 00:41:39,819 --> 00:41:37,640 to pieces because only in totally 932 00:41:47,289 --> 00:41:39,829 smashing them to pieces do you get that 933 00:41:49,539 --> 00:41:47,299 glorious um diffusion of everything you 934 00:41:51,279 --> 00:41:49,549 know and I'd actually say it slightly I 935 00:41:52,750 --> 00:41:51,289 get where you're coming from but I'd say 936 00:41:55,779 --> 00:41:52,760 it in a slightly different way because 937 00:41:58,809 --> 00:41:55,789 in your book the wakeful world what you 938 00:42:01,599 --> 00:41:58,819 do is draw the contrast the relief if 939 00:42:03,370 --> 00:42:01,609 you will and say okay let's look at 940 00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:03,380 materialism does that really hold 941 00:42:09,099 --> 00:42:05,390 together and when you start picking it 942 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:09,109 apart then for the average person who's 943 00:42:13,450 --> 00:42:11,510 coming at this by comparison you're 944 00:42:16,809 --> 00:42:13,460 already drawn to animism because you're 945 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:16,819 like wow that really is so ridiculous 946 00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:18,770 you mean on just this biological robot 947 00:42:23,740 --> 00:42:20,960 in a meaningless world nothing is real 948 00:42:25,870 --> 00:42:23,750 my experience isn't real yet nothing 949 00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:25,880 else matters or I'm not interacting you 950 00:42:29,210 --> 00:42:26,640 know it 951 00:42:31,339 --> 00:42:29,220 sounds at that point so absurd and so 952 00:42:33,529 --> 00:42:31,349 crazy that I think anyone is open to 953 00:42:36,589 --> 00:42:33,539 well what's the alternative it's not 954 00:42:38,809 --> 00:42:36,599 even that it's meaningless because the 955 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:38,819 meaninglessness to me is somehow it it's 956 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:45,210 a human emotional response to to the 957 00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:49,890 reality I'll use that word um if you 958 00:42:55,819 --> 00:42:53,250 look at it rationally scientifically if 959 00:42:59,000 --> 00:42:55,829 you like use the tools of science there 960 00:43:01,279 --> 00:42:59,010 is no understanding in science of what 961 00:43:03,079 --> 00:43:01,289 consciousness is there are people like 962 00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:03,089 your friend going through stories there 963 00:43:06,620 --> 00:43:05,160 anecdotal stories and they're looking at 964 00:43:08,180 --> 00:43:06,630 research but it's through through 965 00:43:10,130 --> 00:43:08,190 narratives through stories through 966 00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:10,140 experience but what is consciousness 967 00:43:16,849 --> 00:43:13,200 nobody knows and the fact that nobody 968 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:16,859 knows what consciousness is is really 969 00:43:21,859 --> 00:43:20,250 hidden in our world people don't talk 970 00:43:24,019 --> 00:43:21,869 about it as an assumption that someone 971 00:43:26,599 --> 00:43:24,029 knows that because if you don't know 972 00:43:28,839 --> 00:43:26,609 what consciousness is then why are you 973 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:30,319 antipsychotic drugs 974 00:43:36,009 --> 00:43:33,450 what are these antidepressant drugs what 975 00:43:38,930 --> 00:43:36,019 are these drugs that shift consciousness 976 00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:38,940 I'm not talking about plants and drugs 977 00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:40,920 that come out of nature but they don't 978 00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:42,240 answer the question either I mean it 979 00:43:45,859 --> 00:43:43,680 doesn't matter if it's organic it's 980 00:43:48,319 --> 00:43:45,869 still the same question one of the ways 981 00:43:48,799 --> 00:43:48,329 to get there is the hindu net annette 982 00:43:51,140 --> 00:43:48,809 Aneta 983 00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:51,150 i mean it's not that it's not that it's 984 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:52,920 not that it's also this origin of the 985 00:43:56,749 --> 00:43:55,170 skeptic of the Greek philosophers keep 986 00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:56,759 asking the question it's not that it's 987 00:44:01,220 --> 00:43:58,740 not that so we don't know what 988 00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:01,230 consciousness is and as we get closer to 989 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:03,569 it and what as we understand understand 990 00:44:07,490 --> 00:44:05,130 that perhaps consciousness is 991 00:44:09,289 --> 00:44:07,500 fundamental that it is the base of 992 00:44:11,059 --> 00:44:09,299 everything then that means it's going to 993 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:11,069 be impossible to ever know what 994 00:44:15,710 --> 00:44:13,650 consciousness is but what we can do and 995 00:44:18,079 --> 00:44:15,720 what is useful and what you are doing is 996 00:44:21,380 --> 00:44:18,089 saying you know what it appears that 997 00:44:23,839 --> 00:44:21,390 consciousness is not this it's not 998 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:23,849 purely an epiphenomena of the brain it 999 00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:26,130 isn't manufactured the way we 1000 00:44:30,859 --> 00:44:27,630 manufacture cars 1001 00:44:32,690 --> 00:44:30,869 it isn't neurologically based it doesn't 1002 00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:32,700 make sense to look at where 1003 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:35,910 consciousness emerged when the 1004 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:38,970 consciousness suddenly come into you 1005 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:39,810 know we look at 1006 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:42,450 way back at what point that it is a 1007 00:44:45,380 --> 00:44:43,290 category era 1008 00:44:49,090 --> 00:44:45,390 it doesn't make exactly approach that a 1009 00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:49,100 thing else it can't it's two different 1010 00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:52,110 its absolutely fundamentally different 1011 00:44:59,870 --> 00:44:55,550 um it's um 1012 00:45:03,200 --> 00:44:59,880 disrespectful now I'm shifting it from 1013 00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:03,210 the scientific to the spiritual or and 1014 00:45:08,530 --> 00:45:04,910 I'm putting in that word for me it's 1015 00:45:12,410 --> 00:45:08,540 disrespectful to imagine that it's not 1016 00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:12,420 fundamental and disrespecting anything 1017 00:45:20,180 --> 00:45:15,510 is a way of making sure that we don't 1018 00:45:22,940 --> 00:45:20,190 work with it in harmony that we misuse 1019 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:22,950 it that we don't understand it 1020 00:45:26,990 --> 00:45:24,570 fundamentally so if you think you 1021 00:45:29,420 --> 00:45:27,000 understand it where you discard the need 1022 00:45:33,860 --> 00:45:29,430 to understand it so you assume someone 1023 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:33,870 else understands it you I mean that it's 1024 00:45:37,850 --> 00:45:35,970 that wonderful thing materialists sake 1025 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:37,860 well consciousness is an epiphenomenon 1026 00:45:42,980 --> 00:45:39,050 of 1027 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:42,990 the brain or physicality the nervous 1028 00:45:49,580 --> 00:45:45,810 system coming together but they don't 1029 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:49,590 tell us where it emerged out of in 1030 00:45:54,530 --> 00:45:52,410 evolution out of nature itself so 1031 00:45:57,650 --> 00:45:54,540 there's a massive gap I mean it's it 1032 00:46:01,520 --> 00:45:57,660 just stands on nothing the iDrive is it 1033 00:46:03,890 --> 00:46:01,530 is completely bound but found 'less and 1034 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:03,900 that's again it's hidden it's an 1035 00:46:10,190 --> 00:46:07,290 incredibly disingenuous perspective yet 1036 00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:10,200 it is so fundamental to modern Western 1037 00:46:17,630 --> 00:46:15,240 culture and modern Western capitalism as 1038 00:46:20,780 --> 00:46:17,640 well yeah that takes us in a whole 1039 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:20,790 different direction which is fundamental 1040 00:46:24,590 --> 00:46:22,050 to really trying to pull this apart 1041 00:46:28,310 --> 00:46:24,600 which is you know what is the 1042 00:46:33,140 --> 00:46:28,320 relationship between these scientific 1043 00:46:36,050 --> 00:46:33,150 paradigms this dogma and the agenda over 1044 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:36,060 here in terms of controlling people and 1045 00:46:42,980 --> 00:46:39,770 control systems and all the rest of that 1046 00:46:44,710 --> 00:46:42,990 maybe we want to maybe we want to talk 1047 00:46:48,260 --> 00:46:44,720 about that I certainly think it's 1048 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:48,270 inescapable to see it will I look at it 1049 00:46:51,380 --> 00:46:48,810 this way 1050 00:46:53,660 --> 00:46:51,390 I was said if you want to run the world 1051 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:53,670 if you want to be 1052 00:46:57,620 --> 00:46:56,010 Julius Caesar and go kill all the Druids 1053 00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:57,630 or I think it was who was it wet just 1054 00:47:02,180 --> 00:46:59,760 wiped up wiped them off the face of the 1055 00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:02,190 earth but if you want to run the world 1056 00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:05,040 in the modern world would you how would 1057 00:47:10,490 --> 00:47:07,980 you want people to act and I think the 1058 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:10,500 way you'd want to act is the way George 1059 00:47:14,990 --> 00:47:12,450 Bush want him to act when he invaded 1060 00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:15,000 Iraq after 9/11 and said just go 1061 00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:17,430 shopping just go down to your mall and 1062 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:19,200 continue your shop and people continue 1063 00:47:27,309 --> 00:47:22,530 doing the mindless stuff that you do I 1064 00:47:32,079 --> 00:47:27,319 mean that is the quintessential 1065 00:47:34,849 --> 00:47:32,089 experience of how scientific materialism 1066 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:34,859 infiltrates into you know the collective 1067 00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:37,650 consciousness in terms of what we do and 1068 00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:39,750 if we in fact you can go back to Julius 1069 00:47:46,569 --> 00:47:42,329 Caesar he didn't his aim wasn't to wipe 1070 00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:46,579 out the Druids his aim was to take over 1071 00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:49,440 areas where there were great trade 1072 00:47:54,410 --> 00:47:51,540 resources to control the people to 1073 00:47:58,190 --> 00:47:54,420 control cos right exactly exactly yeah 1074 00:48:04,510 --> 00:47:58,200 so um yes it's controlling consciousness 1075 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:04,520 by giving that opium off of a trade of 1076 00:48:17,420 --> 00:48:10,170 consumerism and and it's impossible to 1077 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:17,430 consume in a way that is that is good 1078 00:48:22,789 --> 00:48:20,250 for capitalism if everything around you 1079 00:48:28,220 --> 00:48:22,799 is minded if you understand that 1080 00:48:31,069 --> 00:48:28,230 everything has its UM right to thrive to 1081 00:48:34,579 --> 00:48:31,079 live to be itself you can't just go 1082 00:48:38,329 --> 00:48:34,589 wiping out environments you can't breed 1083 00:48:41,569 --> 00:48:38,339 and abuse animals you can't you can't do 1084 00:48:44,539 --> 00:48:41,579 any of this I mean animism in itself has 1085 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:44,549 to as a philosophy it it brings us to a 1086 00:48:49,490 --> 00:48:47,130 point of minimal consumerism which is 1087 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:49,500 not good for capitalism you know but the 1088 00:48:54,230 --> 00:48:51,450 flip side of that and anyone will bring 1089 00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:54,240 this up and it's rightful to do so is 1090 00:48:59,329 --> 00:48:56,970 that if we look at our history over the 1091 00:49:02,240 --> 00:48:59,339 last hundred years it's been a battle of 1092 00:49:05,539 --> 00:49:02,250 two ideological systems capitalism and 1093 00:49:07,370 --> 00:49:05,549 communism if you will and certainly any 1094 00:49:09,230 --> 00:49:07,380 thinking person is going to choose Kay 1095 00:49:12,410 --> 00:49:09,240 over communism communism is done a 1096 00:49:15,319 --> 00:49:12,420 complete failure talking about you know 1097 00:49:19,279 --> 00:49:15,329 completely one because it's atheistic it 1098 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:19,289 completely denies as wrong as Christians 1099 00:49:25,279 --> 00:49:21,410 might be or extreme fundamentalist 1100 00:49:28,329 --> 00:49:25,289 Islamists might be there at least in the 1101 00:49:30,589 --> 00:49:28,339 ball game of saying there's more the 1102 00:49:32,539 --> 00:49:30,599 atheistic there is nothing we are 1103 00:49:35,420 --> 00:49:32,549 biological robots life is meaningless 1104 00:49:39,259 --> 00:49:35,430 thing and the implementation of that by 1105 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:39,269 Mao or Stalin or all the Communists 1106 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:40,650 we've seen come along in the last 1107 00:49:46,339 --> 00:49:43,410 hundred years is just disastrous to the 1108 00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,349 soul of of people so you know it's two 1109 00:49:51,049 --> 00:49:48,960 really bad choices but I don't know you 1110 00:49:53,660 --> 00:49:51,059 just got to be fair in that sense but 1111 00:49:56,900 --> 00:49:53,670 fundamentally both capitalism and 1112 00:50:02,269 --> 00:49:56,910 communism are about the control of 1113 00:50:06,109 --> 00:50:02,279 capital and ads are and how you lay down 1114 00:50:10,220 --> 00:50:06,119 an authority over the people as to how 1115 00:50:12,620 --> 00:50:10,230 they how you distribute that capital and 1116 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:12,630 what kind of power that people have 1117 00:50:18,499 --> 00:50:15,210 about what they their input is in terms 1118 00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:18,509 of that distribution of capital um so in 1119 00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:20,160 that respect it's they're both about 1120 00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:22,980 consumerism yeah but the only time I 1121 00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:24,240 ever hear people talking about an 1122 00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:26,220 alternative and you know springing 1123 00:50:32,089 --> 00:50:29,609 towards some an acro capital whatever 1124 00:50:34,930 --> 00:50:32,099 system we're going to have it always 1125 00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:34,940 seems to me to be built on this 1126 00:50:38,420 --> 00:50:36,660 infrastructure that was created by 1127 00:50:40,009 --> 00:50:38,430 capitalism it's they always say well now 1128 00:50:41,809 --> 00:50:40,019 we have the Internet you know so we go 1129 00:50:44,779 --> 00:50:41,819 to this and that's like well wait a 1130 00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,789 minute you're kind of assuming you know 1131 00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:46,559 it's like give me one miracle and I can 1132 00:50:51,410 --> 00:50:48,480 explain the rest will give me you know a 1133 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:51,420 world wide web with total information 1134 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:53,130 flow and all the rest of that and then 1135 00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:55,170 we can build a fair and just and 1136 00:51:00,380 --> 00:50:57,690 equitable system I don't I don't know 1137 00:51:01,999 --> 00:51:00,390 you know you can't really go there no I 1138 00:51:04,009 --> 00:51:02,009 think I think it comes down to each 1139 00:51:07,220 --> 00:51:04,019 individual person I think it has to 1140 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:07,230 because in from an anarchic perspective 1141 00:51:13,460 --> 00:51:09,690 Mike respective as an anarchist I would 1142 00:51:15,140 --> 00:51:13,470 say that as an individual you have to be 1143 00:51:16,770 --> 00:51:15,150 responsible for yourself and you have to 1144 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:16,780 be responsible for 1145 00:51:23,130 --> 00:51:20,050 or how much you interact you engage in 1146 00:51:24,930 --> 00:51:23,140 take from the world take from your 1147 00:51:28,260 --> 00:51:24,940 ecosystem your environment your 1148 00:51:32,430 --> 00:51:28,270 community in terms of consumption how 1149 00:51:35,850 --> 00:51:32,440 much you consume and how that level of 1150 00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:35,860 consumption affects the wider world so 1151 00:51:41,580 --> 00:51:38,470 you must be responsible for yourself and 1152 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:41,590 responsible for your interaction how 1153 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:44,290 much you consume so it takes it doesn't 1154 00:51:49,530 --> 00:51:47,170 matter if it's on the internet or just 1155 00:51:51,330 --> 00:51:49,540 in your local village or town it's all 1156 00:51:53,460 --> 00:51:51,340 about consumption you reduce your 1157 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:53,470 consumption and then you're starting to 1158 00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:55,810 get somewhere just reduce reduce until 1159 00:52:02,880 --> 00:51:57,900 you're at a point where you are 1160 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:02,890 surviving and joyful you don't just be 1161 00:52:08,820 --> 00:52:06,450 clear what you need and what you want 1162 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:08,830 you know the only problem I always have 1163 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:10,930 with with that when I talk to anarchist 1164 00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:13,330 because philosophically I'm right there 1165 00:52:18,570 --> 00:52:15,760 where it always seems to break down is 1166 00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:18,580 that we are going to need some kind of 1167 00:52:26,010 --> 00:52:21,910 collective decision-making and are you 1168 00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:26,020 willing to submit to majority rule I 1169 00:52:31,350 --> 00:52:28,240 guess is what it comes down to because 1170 00:52:34,140 --> 00:52:31,360 I'm not I mean I am a kind of classic 1171 00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:34,150 way over the top you know but I also 1172 00:52:39,060 --> 00:52:37,750 have an opportunity with my with my life 1173 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:39,070 in my situation where I have a lot of 1174 00:52:43,140 --> 00:52:41,530 freedom and a lot of choices so I can 1175 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:43,150 kind of rock either way in terms of 1176 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:44,530 going along it doesn't affect me too 1177 00:52:49,650 --> 00:52:47,770 much but are the anok anarchists really 1178 00:52:51,630 --> 00:52:49,660 willing to say well if somebody doesn't 1179 00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:51,640 want to do it your way and somebody 1180 00:52:56,700 --> 00:52:54,160 wants to raise a bunch of industrial 1181 00:52:57,810 --> 00:52:56,710 cattle and everyone goes all-in 70% to 1182 00:52:59,940 --> 00:52:57,820 be able to go along with that 1183 00:53:03,810 --> 00:52:59,950 then do you go along with that or do you 1184 00:53:05,610 --> 00:53:03,820 go start you know Obama bombing the 1185 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:05,620 place and you know doing all this crazy 1186 00:53:10,170 --> 00:53:07,810 like you said kind of doing all the 1187 00:53:13,110 --> 00:53:10,180 crazy stuff that goes against the 1188 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:13,120 fundamental idea of the spiritual truth 1189 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:15,610 which is to be in yourself and to 1190 00:53:21,180 --> 00:53:19,210 realize that we just have to kind of be 1191 00:53:23,310 --> 00:53:21,190 okay with whatever happens ultimately 1192 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:23,320 while we're trying to affect change 1193 00:53:27,660 --> 00:53:25,690 fundamentally everything's going to be 1194 00:53:31,230 --> 00:53:27,670 okay I don't know 1195 00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:31,240 if everything is going to be okay I I 1196 00:53:39,150 --> 00:53:34,480 I'm not sure that that's the point 1197 00:53:41,130 --> 00:53:39,160 I think that um holding on to it own 1198 00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:41,140 that that fine thread that says 1199 00:53:46,980 --> 00:53:42,720 everything is going to be okay is 1200 00:53:50,010 --> 00:53:46,990 sometimes a way of not taking immediate 1201 00:53:53,339 --> 00:53:50,020 action immediate responsibility now but 1202 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:53,349 I still think it's about oneself I think 1203 00:53:56,670 --> 00:53:55,210 in terms of the you know are we going to 1204 00:53:59,400 --> 00:53:56,680 be okay with what other people want 1205 00:54:00,569 --> 00:53:59,410 latter about education and that's why 1206 00:54:03,180 --> 00:54:00,579 for me animism 1207 00:54:07,339 --> 00:54:03,190 and anarchy go together we don't live in 1208 00:54:10,770 --> 00:54:07,349 a world which perceives animistic Lee 1209 00:54:13,470 --> 00:54:10,780 therefore it wouldn't work in my 1210 00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:13,480 perspective it wouldn't work to be in a 1211 00:54:20,579 --> 00:54:16,319 world which functioned and are quickly 1212 00:54:24,230 --> 00:54:20,589 because anarchy needs to be it needs to 1213 00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:24,240 come it comes from that same perspective 1214 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:27,520 where you understand that everything has 1215 00:54:31,230 --> 00:54:28,690 a right to be 1216 00:54:36,990 --> 00:54:31,240 everything has a right to thrive and you 1217 00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:37,000 don't abuse or intervene in the world 1218 00:54:42,690 --> 00:54:40,240 beyond what you need to so you can't say 1219 00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:42,700 yes if you're if everyone is working in 1220 00:54:49,579 --> 00:54:45,000 an animistic way Dani Anarchy would work 1221 00:54:52,140 --> 00:54:49,589 if everyone is still thriving striving 1222 00:54:54,569 --> 00:54:52,150 grasping for their own little bit of 1223 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:54,579 capital for their own little bit of 1224 00:54:59,309 --> 00:54:56,650 survival in the capitalist world then 1225 00:55:01,380 --> 00:54:59,319 Anarchy doesn't work just like communism 1226 00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:01,390 doesn't work when it's still based on 1227 00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:03,520 consumerism in that way it's still based 1228 00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:07,089 on capital we have to get rid of this 1229 00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:10,720 notion of capital and start to 1230 00:55:18,839 --> 00:55:14,319 understand the notion of relationship 1231 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:18,849 and the ecosystem of of our relationship 1232 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:21,490 of our world when we're working purely 1233 00:55:27,059 --> 00:55:24,970 on relationship one to want me with the 1234 00:55:28,950 --> 00:55:27,069 ground me with the rain me with the 1235 00:55:32,099 --> 00:55:28,960 river me with the neighbors need me with 1236 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:32,109 the birds me with the source of water 1237 00:55:37,060 --> 00:55:36,130 the source of food and everything in in 1238 00:55:40,570 --> 00:55:37,070 that web of 1239 00:55:45,220 --> 00:55:40,580 understanding everything is minded and 1240 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:45,230 and our level of respect changes but 1241 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:48,530 then anarchy has a possible future but 1242 00:55:53,650 --> 00:55:50,810 without that I think and I anarchy 1243 00:55:58,930 --> 00:55:53,660 within a capitalist system or a 1244 00:56:00,610 --> 00:55:58,940 consumerist system cannot work as I was 1245 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:00,620 mentioning ago you know this hasn't gone 1246 00:56:05,650 --> 00:56:03,050 exactly the way that I planned but I 1247 00:56:08,350 --> 00:56:05,660 think it's great I love that I hope 1248 00:56:09,970 --> 00:56:08,360 people are getting a sense for who you 1249 00:56:12,730 --> 00:56:09,980 are you know and who you are right now 1250 00:56:14,110 --> 00:56:12,740 because then they can go check you out 1251 00:56:16,570 --> 00:56:14,120 and check out the work that you're doing 1252 00:56:17,770 --> 00:56:16,580 and follow you if you want to be 1253 00:56:18,660 --> 00:56:17,780 followed maybe you don't want to be 1254 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:18,670 followed 1255 00:56:24,820 --> 00:56:21,410 no read the books but don't follow me 1256 00:56:26,530 --> 00:56:24,830 I'm like a cat you know I I just I don't 1257 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:26,540 like to be followed don't turn around in 1258 00:56:31,210 --> 00:56:29,210 the snow go go go 1259 00:56:33,910 --> 00:56:31,220 so you in the physical sense or in the 1260 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:33,920 kind of social media sense you're not 1261 00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:35,330 kind of out there all the time but you 1262 00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:36,590 want these ideas to get out there which 1263 00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:38,000 is totally cool I get that that's 1264 00:56:44,020 --> 00:56:40,960 totally fair and actually that's another 1265 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:44,030 it's the paradox again which I think has 1266 00:56:47,470 --> 00:56:45,290 been a reoccurring theme in this 1267 00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:47,480 conversation which is important to me 1268 00:56:52,300 --> 00:56:49,760 the only things that are true are 1269 00:56:54,010 --> 00:56:52,310 paradoxical I mean it's always and and 1270 00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,020 here's a paradox that I want to pick up 1271 00:56:59,230 --> 00:56:56,720 on because a minute ago I said it's all 1272 00:57:00,820 --> 00:56:59,240 going to be okay is kind of and really I 1273 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:00,830 say that and then I immediately what 1274 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:02,930 goes off in my head is my mantra is 1275 00:57:07,780 --> 00:57:05,330 really the opposite of that it's not 1276 00:57:10,540 --> 00:57:07,790 going to be okay nothing is going to be 1277 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:10,550 okay because my little scheming mind 1278 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:12,890 that says you know I want this or I want 1279 00:57:17,290 --> 00:57:14,450 this for my kids or I want this for 1280 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:17,300 myself or I want to be healthy you know 1281 00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:20,690 all that stuff is going to go away none 1282 00:57:25,900 --> 00:57:22,880 of it is going to work out exactly the 1283 00:57:29,710 --> 00:57:25,910 way that I want and am i okay with the 1284 00:57:33,820 --> 00:57:29,720 fact that it's not going to be perfect 1285 00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:33,830 it's not going to be okay so yes and 1286 00:57:39,460 --> 00:57:36,770 also when we when we think about 1287 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:39,470 something being okay we have an idea as 1288 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:41,890 you said we have an image and 1289 00:57:50,410 --> 00:57:46,090 expectation of what that means 1290 00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:50,420 having it's not even about letting go of 1291 00:57:55,540 --> 00:57:52,250 that and allowing something else to be 1292 00:57:59,640 --> 00:57:55,550 it's about letting go of the expectation 1293 00:58:06,010 --> 00:57:59,650 itself because expectation won't arise 1294 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:06,020 it's part of what um makes us inflexible 1295 00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:10,090 it makes us defensive it makes us 1296 00:58:16,930 --> 00:58:13,280 protective of what we have and all kinds 1297 00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:16,940 of bad human behaviors no it's much 1298 00:58:23,470 --> 00:58:19,370 easier to have nothing and have nothing 1299 00:58:25,740 --> 00:58:23,480 to lose and so I'm not expect stuff 1300 00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:25,750 everything is about us everything is 1301 00:58:30,340 --> 00:58:28,310 wonderful when it comes well this is 1302 00:58:32,890 --> 00:58:30,350 deep spirituality I mean virtually every 1303 00:58:35,590 --> 00:58:32,900 wisdom tradition has that at some core 1304 00:58:38,050 --> 00:58:35,600 but as we said before it sometimes gets 1305 00:58:40,270 --> 00:58:38,060 obscured or it manifests in a different 1306 00:58:42,940 --> 00:58:40,280 way so now you have ascetic monks who 1307 00:58:44,830 --> 00:58:42,950 don't know why they're kneeling on wood 1308 00:58:46,540 --> 00:58:44,840 and don't have any possessions they just 1309 00:58:48,070 --> 00:58:46,550 say that's how we've always done it at 1310 00:58:50,830 --> 00:58:48,080 this monastery but they're not really 1311 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:50,840 aware of why they're doing what they're 1312 00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:54,890 doing hmm yes which is a shame I think 1313 00:59:04,480 --> 00:58:57,250 there are a lot of spiritual traditions 1314 00:59:06,910 --> 00:59:04,490 including old pagan traditions and that 1315 00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:06,920 that are doing things because that the 1316 00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:08,720 way it's done one of the good things 1317 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:12,650 about modern jewelry is that it was a 1318 00:59:17,650 --> 00:59:14,570 shattered it's not an ancient tradition 1319 00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:17,660 it existed a long time ago but it's not 1320 00:59:24,190 --> 00:59:21,170 only in some very skinny ways has it 1321 00:59:29,950 --> 00:59:24,200 passed all the way down into the 20th 1322 00:59:32,260 --> 00:59:29,960 19th 20th 21st centuries and that's the 1323 00:59:32,860 --> 00:59:32,270 fact that it's been broken is quite 1324 00:59:36,100 --> 00:59:32,870 valuable 1325 00:59:37,810 --> 00:59:36,110 I remember having long talks with First 1326 00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:37,820 Nation Canadians Native Americans 1327 00:59:45,570 --> 00:59:40,910 Lowery's people who have tradition which 1328 00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:45,580 is unbroken and talking about how they 1329 00:59:51,550 --> 00:59:49,250 struggle with the rigidity of tradition 1330 00:59:53,620 --> 00:59:51,560 they struck with the superstitions that 1331 00:59:57,570 --> 00:59:53,630 have been in there for so many hundreds 1332 01:00:03,540 --> 00:59:57,580 of years maybe thousands of years and 1333 01:00:05,370 --> 01:00:03,550 a neo-paganism shouldn't some do but it 1334 01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:05,380 isn't necessary to have those 1335 01:00:12,030 --> 01:00:08,170 superstitions it can be bright and awake 1336 01:00:13,590 --> 01:00:12,040 and a part of a Hmong mind you know 1337 01:00:15,570 --> 01:00:13,600 that's a question that I have to ask 1338 01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:15,580 because the image that a lot of people 1339 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:17,440 are going to have when they think druid 1340 01:00:23,250 --> 01:00:20,170 is going to be all the images you know 1341 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:23,260 the white robes kind of the earthy stick 1342 01:00:28,470 --> 01:00:25,810 there or some kind of you know you know 1343 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:28,480 the image and some of that is associated 1344 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:31,330 with some people who practice Druidry 1345 01:00:37,860 --> 01:00:34,690 you know let's deconstruct that a little 1346 01:00:39,900 --> 01:00:37,870 bit why the nonconformity I mean I get 1347 01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:39,910 it as kind of a reactionary thing but 1348 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:42,160 also there seems to be a little theater 1349 01:00:49,350 --> 01:00:44,890 shock factor there that I don't quite 1350 01:00:50,580 --> 01:00:49,360 get have you seen what bishops wear in 1351 01:00:52,740 --> 01:00:50,590 the church 1352 01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:52,750 totally but I'm not Christian I think 1353 01:00:57,210 --> 01:00:54,130 it's totally bizarre I think it's 1354 01:01:00,570 --> 01:00:57,220 cultish I think it's designed to control 1355 01:01:05,130 --> 01:01:00,580 people it's designed to it's a cultish 1356 01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:05,140 practice so so and and in Druidry I 1357 01:01:13,050 --> 01:01:09,210 would suggest that the vast majority of 1358 01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:13,060 people within the modern druid movement 1359 01:01:18,060 --> 01:01:15,850 here in Britain might stay probably 1360 01:01:20,220 --> 01:01:18,070 across Europe I have nothing to do with 1361 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:20,230 that kind of theater they don't dress up 1362 01:01:25,260 --> 01:01:23,530 they wouldn't be a people wouldn't 1363 01:01:28,170 --> 01:01:25,270 assume or know that they were druid 1364 01:01:33,170 --> 01:01:28,180 unless they started talking to them so 1365 01:01:39,780 --> 01:01:33,180 it is a small fringe of theatricality of 1366 01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:39,790 ostentation of very well it's like you 1367 01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:42,610 know the hippies on the edge and that's 1368 01:01:47,730 --> 01:01:44,610 really not what Druidry is as a whole 1369 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:47,740 you go to a conference here in England 1370 01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:51,250 throughs Druidry a druid recanted 1371 01:01:57,090 --> 01:01:53,490 Riddick conference and most people are 1372 01:02:00,090 --> 01:01:57,100 very mainstream in the way that they 1373 01:02:02,779 --> 01:02:00,100 look and the work that they do 1374 01:02:05,509 --> 01:02:02,789 later tend to work in caring or artistic 1375 01:02:08,449 --> 01:02:05,519 professions not in corporate you know 1376 01:02:11,209 --> 01:02:08,459 monsters but they still are working 1377 01:02:13,749 --> 01:02:11,219 within the mainstream of society so it's 1378 01:02:16,669 --> 01:02:13,759 that theatricality is just on the edge 1379 01:02:18,589 --> 01:02:16,679 and I played in there out there in the 1380 01:02:21,919 --> 01:02:18,599 wild because I've never been very good 1381 01:02:24,229 --> 01:02:21,929 in the rain stream I was out there but 1382 01:02:28,489 --> 01:02:24,239 that was partly because when I first 1383 01:02:36,549 --> 01:02:28,499 came to Gerry in the mid to late 1980s 1384 01:02:41,029 --> 01:02:36,559 it was a very patriarchal very soft 1385 01:02:43,269 --> 01:02:41,039 abstract um there were men leading the 1386 01:02:48,199 --> 01:02:43,279 groups there was a lot of 1387 01:02:50,359 --> 01:02:48,209 intellectualization it had enough so I 1388 01:02:53,390 --> 01:02:50,369 didn't think I couldn't find it 1389 01:02:57,079 --> 01:02:53,400 I had no women so and so I went in there 1390 01:03:00,829 --> 01:02:57,089 in my late 20s and stomped and and 1391 01:03:05,809 --> 01:03:00,839 yelled and and brought in some rich wild 1392 01:03:07,819 --> 01:03:05,819 shamanic energy and shook it up and I 1393 01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:07,829 did I made a difference though I say it 1394 01:03:12,259 --> 01:03:10,650 myself I did I made a difference in 1395 01:03:15,169 --> 01:03:12,269 there and then I got together with a 1396 01:03:17,479 --> 01:03:15,179 fellow called Philip chakras who was 1397 01:03:20,599 --> 01:03:17,489 working on a bearish in a very shamanic 1398 01:03:21,529 --> 01:03:20,609 way and I use that word but with slight 1399 01:03:24,109 --> 01:03:21,539 slight winds 1400 01:03:27,589 --> 01:03:24,119 um it's but it's a word that people 1401 01:03:31,390 --> 01:03:27,599 understand wrote the wildness the 1402 01:03:34,609 --> 01:03:31,400 understanding that drudgery is a 1403 01:03:38,269 --> 01:03:34,619 tradition of learning it's a tradition 1404 01:03:40,399 --> 01:03:38,279 of study one thing we know about the 1405 01:03:44,149 --> 01:03:40,409 Druids of 2,000 years ago and more is 1406 01:03:47,449 --> 01:03:44,159 that they were an intellectual elite or 1407 01:03:50,269 --> 01:03:47,459 they were the educated and they had 1408 01:03:53,630 --> 01:03:50,279 authority because they were educated and 1409 01:03:55,729 --> 01:03:53,640 I think that's why it was easy for 1410 01:03:57,949 --> 01:03:55,739 Caesar and and others to wipe them out 1411 01:04:00,739 --> 01:03:57,959 because they stood on their authority 1412 01:04:03,019 --> 01:04:00,749 and I don't like that I'm glad that that 1413 01:04:04,969 --> 01:04:03,029 was wiped out because that's what I 1414 01:04:06,530 --> 01:04:04,979 don't like I mean I wouldn't go for 1415 01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:06,540 Caesar instead of a jury 1416 01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:09,090 but you know the standing on your 1417 01:04:13,550 --> 01:04:11,310 authority and taking powers is not a 1418 01:04:15,890 --> 01:04:13,560 part of the spiritual path they 1419 01:04:18,590 --> 01:04:15,900 understand but that doesn't take away 1420 01:04:20,450 --> 01:04:18,600 from jewelry as a learning tradition if 1421 01:04:22,460 --> 01:04:20,460 you come across druids you know nothing 1422 01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:22,470 they're not doing charity 1423 01:04:27,050 --> 01:04:24,870 it's about studying nature it's not 1424 01:04:30,770 --> 01:04:27,060 about studying Druidry it's about 1425 01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:30,780 studying nature okay I got that so what 1426 01:04:35,270 --> 01:04:32,160 are you bringing to the table 1427 01:04:37,370 --> 01:04:35,280 what is druid jury telling me about the 1428 01:04:39,410 --> 01:04:37,380 big picture questions I want to know Who 1429 01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:39,420 am I why am I here I mean that's why 1430 01:04:42,550 --> 01:04:40,890 I've done a hundred shows on near-death 1431 01:04:45,110 --> 01:04:42,560 experience that's why I'm interested in 1432 01:04:47,660 --> 01:04:45,120 mediumship from a scientific standpoint 1433 01:04:48,620 --> 01:04:47,670 of reincarnation I want to answer the 1434 01:04:52,310 --> 01:04:48,630 big questions 1435 01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:52,320 what does Druidry tell me about this 1436 01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:54,570 extended consciousness realm which seems 1437 01:04:59,150 --> 01:04:56,610 to be at the center of everything I'm 1438 01:05:01,310 --> 01:04:59,160 gonna go back and before you interrupted 1439 01:05:04,030 --> 01:05:01,320 me so beautifully which is study nature 1440 01:05:07,490 --> 01:05:04,040 and that includes study human nature 1441 01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:07,500 study it as deeply and fully as you can 1442 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:10,530 so for me as you'll see in my books that 1443 01:05:16,370 --> 01:05:13,410 includes for me studying the heritage of 1444 01:05:18,770 --> 01:05:16,380 my philosophy so the heritage of Western 1445 01:05:20,810 --> 01:05:18,780 philosophy going outside of that where 1446 01:05:22,510 --> 01:05:20,820 it can help me studying Hinduism or 1447 01:05:26,750 --> 01:05:22,520 Buddhism Shintoism whatever it may be 1448 01:05:29,570 --> 01:05:26,760 studying until I understand more what 1449 01:05:32,930 --> 01:05:29,580 works in terms of my perspective my 1450 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:32,940 perception and that includes all that 1451 01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:35,450 brings us when your focus is on nature 1452 01:05:40,130 --> 01:05:38,250 that brings you to a respect and a 1453 01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:40,140 wakefulness and a willingness to open 1454 01:05:45,470 --> 01:05:43,680 your mind to what nature truly is but 1455 01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:45,480 Emma you have to realize anyone could 1456 01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:48,330 say that anyone can and does say that 1457 01:05:52,660 --> 01:05:50,880 there's a bunch of New Agers who at the 1458 01:05:55,340 --> 01:05:52,670 end of the day seemed to have very uh 1459 01:05:58,550 --> 01:05:55,350 nasty ulterior motives who say exactly 1460 01:06:00,110 --> 01:05:58,560 the same thing I'm not saying you're 1461 01:06:04,430 --> 01:06:00,120 saying that but I'm saying we got to be 1462 01:06:06,950 --> 01:06:04,440 a little bit more specific how what do 1463 01:06:10,850 --> 01:06:06,960 you want like I've just told you I go to 1464 01:06:14,230 --> 01:06:10,860 I feel that I'm nudging closer to this 1465 01:06:17,150 --> 01:06:14,240 truth when I study a compilation of 1466 01:06:19,220 --> 01:06:17,160 2,000 near-death experience it's studies 1467 01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:19,230 that happened after someone died and I 1468 01:06:22,069 --> 01:06:19,920 say well 1469 01:06:24,289 --> 01:06:22,079 now clearly I know that consciousness 1470 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:24,299 survives death whatever phony-baloney 1471 01:06:27,980 --> 01:06:25,890 timeline I'm going to put on that I 1472 01:06:29,900 --> 01:06:27,990 realize I accept what you're saying that 1473 01:06:32,569 --> 01:06:29,910 timelines are problematic but I know 1474 01:06:35,690 --> 01:06:32,579 that my consciousness isn't limited to 1475 01:06:38,420 --> 01:06:35,700 when this body stops breathing that 1476 01:06:40,970 --> 01:06:38,430 nudges me a step closer when I realize 1477 01:06:43,579 --> 01:06:40,980 that there that the consistent evidence 1478 01:06:46,670 --> 01:06:43,589 from that group knowledge is that there 1479 01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:46,680 is a moral imperative there is such a 1480 01:06:53,299 --> 01:06:49,440 thing as right and wrong it isn't just 1481 01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:53,309 all whatever we make up that nudges me a 1482 01:06:58,910 --> 01:06:55,770 little bit closer that's an idea I hold 1483 01:07:04,160 --> 01:06:58,920 on to what are you what have you learned 1484 01:07:05,390 --> 01:07:04,170 from nature that you can offer us what 1485 01:07:09,289 --> 01:07:05,400 but what you're saying is that you're 1486 01:07:11,059 --> 01:07:09,299 studying stories and patterns so you're 1487 01:07:14,150 --> 01:07:11,069 just reading other people's stories 1488 01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:14,160 well no everybody says that I mean I'm 1489 01:07:18,079 --> 01:07:16,170 experiencing I'm reading and 1490 01:07:21,650 --> 01:07:18,089 experiencing reading I'm meditating 1491 01:07:24,620 --> 01:07:21,660 every day I'm walking out on the beach 1492 01:07:26,089 --> 01:07:24,630 you know many times I'm experiencing so 1493 01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:26,099 that that always seems kind of trite 1494 01:07:30,410 --> 01:07:27,930 when people say you're you're reading 1495 01:07:32,809 --> 01:07:30,420 other people's experience I mean we're 1496 01:07:35,180 --> 01:07:32,819 all interacting with the with the 1497 01:07:37,250 --> 01:07:35,190 extended consciousness all the time 1498 01:07:38,839 --> 01:07:37,260 whether we want to or not that's not 1499 01:07:41,839 --> 01:07:38,849 what I'm saying if you're you're asking 1500 01:07:45,260 --> 01:07:41,849 me so what is it that what is it 1501 01:07:47,450 --> 01:07:45,270 specifically that Dory can offer I can 1502 01:07:49,809 --> 01:07:47,460 offer what I'm saying is that what we're 1503 01:07:52,130 --> 01:07:49,819 all doing is we're studying stories and 1504 01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:52,140 experience other people's experience and 1505 01:07:55,940 --> 01:07:54,450 our own experience and we're studying 1506 01:07:58,640 --> 01:07:55,950 stories and when writing our own 1507 01:08:00,920 --> 01:07:58,650 experience we're doing the same thing 1508 01:08:03,740 --> 01:08:00,930 you're saying well everyone can say that 1509 01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:03,750 and I'm saying yes that's human nature 1510 01:08:11,089 --> 01:08:06,690 that's what we're doing it is absolutely 1511 01:08:13,099 --> 01:08:11,099 simple it's all the same stuff it what 1512 01:08:14,359 --> 01:08:13,109 at you what you're saying is a bit hang 1513 01:08:16,189 --> 01:08:14,369 on a minute but where are we finding 1514 01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:16,199 some truth or in say there isn't any 1515 01:08:22,959 --> 01:08:19,290 truth all it is is about doing the 1516 01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:22,969 simple stuff that's it just absolutely 1517 01:08:27,769 --> 01:08:25,890 simple and getting it right and we know 1518 01:08:30,030 --> 01:08:27,779 we're getting it right when we're living 1519 01:08:32,310 --> 01:08:30,040 in a sustainable harmony 1520 01:08:34,740 --> 01:08:32,320 and that sounds trite as well because 1521 01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:34,750 it's simple because that's all there is 1522 01:08:40,620 --> 01:08:37,930 let me throw out one of my ways of 1523 01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:40,630 measuring truth that I'm kind of going 1524 01:08:44,430 --> 01:08:42,970 towards so one of the things I have is 1525 01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:44,440 and it's out of the Bible I'm not a big 1526 01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:46,810 Bible person at all but you know you'll 1527 01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:47,890 know them by their fruits 1528 01:08:52,470 --> 01:08:50,650 right so I love people in the 1529 01:08:54,540 --> 01:08:52,480 alternative spiritual community and I 1530 01:08:55,770 --> 01:08:54,550 consider myself in the alternative 1531 01:08:58,170 --> 01:08:55,780 spiritual community even though I don't 1532 01:09:01,080 --> 01:08:58,180 know what the heck that means but I run 1533 01:09:04,260 --> 01:09:01,090 across people in the occult or esoteric 1534 01:09:06,540 --> 01:09:04,270 or WIC or all this and you know they hit 1535 01:09:09,380 --> 01:09:06,550 with the Aleister Crowley thing you know 1536 01:09:12,990 --> 01:09:09,390 and I just want to say great perfect 1537 01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:13,000 example let's know him by his fruits a 1538 01:09:18,030 --> 01:09:16,210 despicable human being we don't need to 1539 01:09:20,100 --> 01:09:18,040 overthink that we don't need to hear 1540 01:09:23,730 --> 01:09:20,110 about how the Beatles loved him or how 1541 01:09:26,580 --> 01:09:23,740 he changed society he lived a despicable 1542 01:09:30,510 --> 01:09:26,590 life from every way we can record it so 1543 01:09:33,870 --> 01:09:30,520 I take him as an example of maybe I want 1544 01:09:36,180 --> 01:09:33,880 to kind of question more what he's doing 1545 01:09:37,740 --> 01:09:36,190 now I could run across you know I always 1546 01:09:39,660 --> 01:09:37,750 mentioned my friend Rick Archer who does 1547 01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:39,670 this beautiful show called Buddha at the 1548 01:09:44,190 --> 01:09:42,130 gas pump and the title kind of says all 1549 01:09:47,250 --> 01:09:44,200 you need to know which is that there are 1550 01:09:49,410 --> 01:09:47,260 beautifully spiritually awakening we can 1551 01:09:51,750 --> 01:09:49,420 never say awakened but awakening people 1552 01:09:53,610 --> 01:09:51,760 who are living very ordinary lives who 1553 01:09:57,060 --> 01:09:53,620 aren't out there on the book tour doing 1554 01:09:58,670 --> 01:09:57,070 this but have living in harmony I guess 1555 01:10:01,410 --> 01:09:58,680 is the way that you probably say it and 1556 01:10:03,510 --> 01:10:01,420 have found a way to communicate that and 1557 01:10:06,150 --> 01:10:03,520 they are just when you are in their 1558 01:10:09,090 --> 01:10:06,160 presence they are delivering the fruit 1559 01:10:12,540 --> 01:10:09,100 they are saying this is what it means to 1560 01:10:16,290 --> 01:10:12,550 really be alive so like that's an 1561 01:10:17,790 --> 01:10:16,300 example to me of how we find truth is by 1562 01:10:20,850 --> 01:10:17,800 the fruit of what that person is 1563 01:10:23,940 --> 01:10:20,860 bringing how we find the value how we 1564 01:10:25,590 --> 01:10:23,950 find lessons that are worth absorbing 1565 01:10:27,750 --> 01:10:25,600 lessons that are worth learning yes 1566 01:10:31,070 --> 01:10:27,760 absolutely because again it's about 1567 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:31,080 relationship you can find sound 1568 01:10:38,940 --> 01:10:35,410 nourishing elevating relationships with 1569 01:10:41,790 --> 01:10:38,950 people who are peaceful joyful who are 1570 01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:41,800 working living well 1571 01:10:46,709 --> 01:10:44,050 that's exactly what you're saying and I 1572 01:10:51,330 --> 01:10:46,719 would agree entirely if you find someone 1573 01:10:53,459 --> 01:10:51,340 who's who lifts your heart and you allow 1574 01:10:56,100 --> 01:10:53,469 that to lift your heart to make a 1575 01:10:57,029 --> 01:10:56,110 relationship and that changes our 1576 01:11:02,609 --> 01:10:57,039 perspective 1577 01:11:05,850 --> 01:11:02,619 power as so many people is if you're 1578 01:11:10,140 --> 01:11:05,860 looking for power then you're getting 1579 01:11:12,839 --> 01:11:10,150 your internet Authority capital truth 1580 01:11:16,229 --> 01:11:12,849 universal truth declarations of this and 1581 01:11:18,719 --> 01:11:16,239 that ego it's about declaring oneself to 1582 01:11:23,459 --> 01:11:18,729 know more than others it's not about 1583 01:11:26,580 --> 01:11:23,469 that it's about listening and being a 1584 01:11:30,469 --> 01:11:26,590 part of it merging melting dissolving 1585 01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:30,479 into the ecology while not losing 1586 01:11:36,779 --> 01:11:33,210 responsibility for one's own living 1587 01:11:38,759 --> 01:11:36,789 that's it you know ecology and 1588 01:11:41,219 --> 01:11:38,769 environmentalism has come up a couple of 1589 01:11:42,750 --> 01:11:41,229 times and you have a neat word and that 1590 01:11:45,209 --> 01:11:42,760 I ran across you know this deep 1591 01:11:47,759 --> 01:11:45,219 environmentalism kind of thing but I 1592 01:11:49,500 --> 01:11:47,769 always bristle at that a little bit 1593 01:11:54,290 --> 01:11:49,510 because I see so many people that are 1594 01:11:57,180 --> 01:11:54,300 coming at those issues of ecology and 1595 01:12:00,810 --> 01:11:57,190 environmentalism and what I see in it is 1596 01:12:05,339 --> 01:12:00,820 this backdoor materialism yeah talk 1597 01:12:09,209 --> 01:12:05,349 about that totally I mean I the the work 1598 01:12:13,410 --> 01:12:09,219 that I do now is I am creating a nature 1599 01:12:15,959 --> 01:12:13,420 reserve and a natural burial ground 1600 01:12:19,290 --> 01:12:15,969 so I care for people as they die and 1601 01:12:23,729 --> 01:12:19,300 bury them look after the grieving and 1602 01:12:27,899 --> 01:12:23,739 that is or within the context of a 1603 01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:27,909 nature reserve and for me that is 1604 01:12:32,250 --> 01:12:30,610 walking where I don't need to talk I'm a 1605 01:12:37,319 --> 01:12:32,260 representative of the land it's not 1606 01:12:39,180 --> 01:12:37,329 about me and the whole point is to do 1607 01:12:43,259 --> 01:12:39,190 something that is entirely ethical 1608 01:12:45,989 --> 01:12:43,269 entirely in line with my spiritual 1609 01:12:49,979 --> 01:12:45,999 perspectives my animism my love of the 1610 01:12:51,770 --> 01:12:49,989 gods my wonder of nature while not 1611 01:12:55,250 --> 01:12:51,780 consuming and 1612 01:12:57,380 --> 01:12:55,260 and so many my husband and I started the 1613 01:13:01,250 --> 01:12:57,390 business specifically because so many 1614 01:13:04,030 --> 01:13:01,260 ethical green businesses were either run 1615 01:13:07,010 --> 01:13:04,040 haphazardly and essentially 1616 01:13:08,930 --> 01:13:07,020 materialistically or as they were 1617 01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:08,940 offering something which is a luxury and 1618 01:13:14,540 --> 01:13:11,850 it seems to mean it if you buy into a 1619 01:13:18,590 --> 01:13:14,550 Fairtrade organic chocolate is wonderful 1620 01:13:20,510 --> 01:13:18,600 but gods it's a luxury and to do 1621 01:13:22,970 --> 01:13:20,520 something totally ethical you have to be 1622 01:13:26,150 --> 01:13:22,980 doing something that's necessary that we 1623 01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:26,160 need as a community as as a race as a 1624 01:13:32,150 --> 01:13:29,610 species which is what we decided to do 1625 01:13:34,820 --> 01:13:32,160 you know look after the land and bury 1626 01:13:38,270 --> 01:13:34,830 people and that's beautifully it's 1627 01:13:39,650 --> 01:13:38,280 beautifully small and it's beautifully 1628 01:13:41,210 --> 01:13:39,660 small I'll leave it at that 1629 01:13:44,660 --> 01:13:41,220 because the other thing that troubles me 1630 01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:44,670 is like I always run into problems when 1631 01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:46,290 I talk to people who are talking about 1632 01:13:49,850 --> 01:13:47,970 global warming or now it's turned into 1633 01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:49,860 climate change which to me seems like a 1634 01:13:53,570 --> 01:13:52,080 complete scam I don't know what's 1635 01:13:56,390 --> 01:13:53,580 happening I don't know if the planets 1636 01:13:58,040 --> 01:13:56,400 warming at an alarming rate or not you 1637 01:14:00,110 --> 01:13:58,050 know I've looked into that data and I 1638 01:14:03,050 --> 01:14:00,120 have my own opinion but what I do know 1639 01:14:06,230 --> 01:14:03,060 is when someone tries to tell me the 1640 01:14:09,010 --> 01:14:06,240 solution is to create this world 1641 01:14:11,930 --> 01:14:09,020 government that will therefore restrict 1642 01:14:14,780 --> 01:14:11,940 everyone's carbon footprint and will 1643 01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:14,790 determine through laws and taxation and 1644 01:14:19,340 --> 01:14:17,010 all the rest of that just control how 1645 01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:19,350 everyone does I say wait a minute guys 1646 01:14:25,130 --> 01:14:22,770 I've heard this same story before and it 1647 01:14:27,710 --> 01:14:25,140 never turns out well no matter how they 1648 01:14:30,110 --> 01:14:27,720 spin it you know I don't know how you 1649 01:14:33,260 --> 01:14:30,120 feel about that yes and I think it's 1650 01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:33,270 about control is about fear and anything 1651 01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:35,370 that provokes fear is not positive I 1652 01:14:41,690 --> 01:14:37,770 mean that's not silly tautological but 1653 01:14:44,990 --> 01:14:41,700 anything that's about fear is is is 1654 01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:45,000 going to be problematic if you again 1655 01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:48,330 studying human nature one of the things 1656 01:14:52,580 --> 01:14:50,250 we work with is understanding how fear 1657 01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:52,590 works within non human nature is just 1658 01:14:59,330 --> 01:14:55,650 alertness immediately we make something 1659 01:15:01,400 --> 01:14:59,340 alert we have intruded on a space should 1660 01:15:04,290 --> 01:15:01,410 we step back should we just meld you 1661 01:15:07,350 --> 01:15:04,300 know just be aware of of not 1662 01:15:09,690 --> 01:15:07,360 provoking fear it's never going to be an 1663 01:15:12,090 --> 01:15:09,700 answer it's never going to be solution 1664 01:15:15,270 --> 01:15:12,100 if you're provoking fear evoking fear 1665 01:15:17,790 --> 01:15:15,280 and a lot of this doomsday stuff it's 1666 01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:17,800 the you know where we're coming to the 1667 01:15:25,230 --> 01:15:20,650 apocalypse it's it's all yen it's about 1668 01:15:26,670 --> 01:15:25,240 fear it may be it may not be okay it we 1669 01:15:28,440 --> 01:15:26,680 may have turned like Stephen Hawking 1670 01:15:31,140 --> 01:15:28,450 says we may have got to a tipping point 1671 01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:31,150 and now it's you know it's just on the 1672 01:15:36,060 --> 01:15:33,850 endgame Stephen Hawking's who so 1673 01:15:38,730 --> 01:15:36,070 brilliantly told us that philosophy is 1674 01:15:40,530 --> 01:15:38,740 dead I always pull back a little bit 1675 01:15:42,570 --> 01:15:40,540 with stevedore Gaza you know I don't 1676 01:15:44,820 --> 01:15:42,580 know exactly how you figure things out 1677 01:15:46,980 --> 01:15:44,830 but I'm not sure that philosophy is dead 1678 01:15:49,050 --> 01:15:46,990 so I'm not sure he has an emotional 1679 01:15:52,290 --> 01:15:49,060 intelligence that or maybe that's just 1680 01:15:55,170 --> 01:15:52,300 not harmful but for me it's it's not 1681 01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:55,180 about responding to the fear we step 1682 01:16:00,030 --> 01:15:57,130 aside from the fear because it's not a 1683 01:16:02,940 --> 01:16:00,040 useful way of reacting or a useful 1684 01:16:05,100 --> 01:16:02,950 source of understanding what we need to 1685 01:16:08,430 --> 01:16:05,110 be doing is act not out of fear but out 1686 01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:08,440 of respect so again if we are respectful 1687 01:16:13,620 --> 01:16:11,770 if we are ranting in a way which doesn't 1688 01:16:16,710 --> 01:16:13,630 consume more than we need we're doing it 1689 01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:16,720 out of respect for those around us in 1690 01:16:21,300 --> 01:16:18,730 our relationships and our human and 1691 01:16:23,700 --> 01:16:21,310 non-human relationships that's enough 1692 01:16:27,390 --> 01:16:23,710 and what can we do if we want to step 1693 01:16:30,510 --> 01:16:27,400 forward and be a great political figure 1694 01:16:35,370 --> 01:16:30,520 and you know I've never met a politician 1695 01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:35,380 that didn't have some kind of striving 1696 01:16:41,790 --> 01:16:38,530 for exploitation and power and do you 1697 01:16:43,740 --> 01:16:41,800 know the thin on great people it's the 1698 01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:43,750 it's the little people who are making 1699 01:16:48,900 --> 01:16:45,810 the difference doing the small things in 1700 01:16:51,180 --> 01:16:48,910 society that are making a difference 1701 01:16:51,990 --> 01:16:51,190 within their societies within their 1702 01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:52,000 communities 1703 01:17:01,410 --> 01:16:56,170 that's enough it doesn't really matter 1704 01:17:05,340 --> 01:17:01,420 what happens beyond if we are doing all 1705 01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:05,350 that we can do in our own small world in 1706 01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:07,690 the world where we can make immediate 1707 01:17:14,420 --> 01:17:11,710 and and totally engaged relationships 1708 01:17:16,670 --> 01:17:14,430 and we immediately we get out of the 1709 01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:16,680 relationships we're making we're 1710 01:17:23,030 --> 01:17:20,130 engaging with abstract ideas we're 1711 01:17:25,370 --> 01:17:23,040 engage where were fighting the man we're 1712 01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:25,380 fighting the authority we're fighting 1713 01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:28,170 this business you know all of these 1714 01:17:31,820 --> 01:17:28,770 things 1715 01:17:34,300 --> 01:17:31,830 we're fighting abstracts we're fighting 1716 01:17:38,710 --> 01:17:34,310 concepts we're not fighting actual 1717 01:17:41,420 --> 01:17:38,720 people if we make good relationships 1718 01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:41,430 immediately around us the people around 1719 01:17:44,990 --> 01:17:43,050 us will make good relationships 1720 01:17:45,620 --> 01:17:45,000 immediately around them it's as simple 1721 01:17:48,650 --> 01:17:45,630 as that 1722 01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:48,660 it's just about being peaceful right and 1723 01:17:50,870 --> 01:17:50,370 even if that doesn't work all the way 1724 01:17:52,670 --> 01:17:50,880 out 1725 01:17:55,100 --> 01:17:52,680 it just might find you a little bit of 1726 01:17:57,920 --> 01:17:55,110 peace for the next five minutes five 1727 01:17:59,480 --> 01:17:57,930 hours five days whatever it is and then 1728 01:18:00,890 --> 01:17:59,490 you have to deal with whatever happens 1729 01:18:04,250 --> 01:18:00,900 because there still might be some guys 1730 01:18:06,380 --> 01:18:04,260 that roll up to your house with guns and 1731 01:18:08,330 --> 01:18:06,390 battering rams and these they'll have to 1732 01:18:11,090 --> 01:18:08,340 deal with that but in the meantime and 1733 01:18:12,890 --> 01:18:11,100 you do anything I mean with you know 1734 01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:12,900 we've all lived well not all of us but 1735 01:18:18,500 --> 01:18:14,730 you know I've been through periods in my 1736 01:18:21,020 --> 01:18:18,510 life with absolutely nothing with you 1737 01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:21,030 know in total crisis on right on the 1738 01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:24,210 edge of death and you deal with it in 1739 01:18:29,660 --> 01:18:26,970 just the same way as you do with you 1740 01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:29,670 know wondering what to cook when you 1741 01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:31,170 have people coming around and you've got 1742 01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:32,970 to plate the table full of ingredients 1743 01:18:39,440 --> 01:18:35,370 and you know you're just bathed in 1744 01:18:43,370 --> 01:18:39,450 abundance every moment you deal with it 1745 01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:43,380 as peacefully as you can 1746 01:18:47,030 --> 01:18:46,170 instead of getting protective instead of 1747 01:18:49,430 --> 01:18:47,040 getting defensive 1748 01:18:51,140 --> 01:18:49,440 instead of getting fearful instead of 1749 01:18:55,070 --> 01:18:51,150 striving for authority instead of 1750 01:18:59,270 --> 01:18:55,080 shouting at the man just live well now 1751 01:19:00,380 --> 01:18:59,280 here because time and space and all of 1752 01:19:03,950 --> 01:19:00,390 that is just nonsense 1753 01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:03,960 it's all tools that you can work with in 1754 01:19:11,180 --> 01:19:06,650 order to live well but it's not truth 1755 01:19:14,210 --> 01:19:11,190 it's just just just life Emma if people 1756 01:19:17,180 --> 01:19:14,220 are drawn to what you're saying and your 1757 01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:17,190 work what's the best way you settlement 1758 01:19:21,380 --> 01:19:19,170 ago you know and I have respect that you 1759 01:19:24,140 --> 01:19:21,390 know you don't want to generate this big 1760 01:19:26,210 --> 01:19:24,150 cult following that's not your goal but 1761 01:19:27,030 --> 01:19:26,220 what are some of the books that you have 1762 01:19:29,310 --> 01:19:27,040 that peep 1763 01:19:32,220 --> 01:19:29,320 would be most interested in off of this 1764 01:19:33,660 --> 01:19:32,230 conversation do you think and then how 1765 01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:33,670 else might they ain't get involved I 1766 01:19:36,630 --> 01:19:35,050 suppose if someone's really close to you 1767 01:19:38,790 --> 01:19:36,640 they might be interested in those I 1768 01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:38,800 don't know if you call them Hospice kind 1769 01:19:45,810 --> 01:19:42,010 of after death kind of stuff but tell us 1770 01:19:49,380 --> 01:19:45,820 some of that stuff I have I wrote books 1771 01:19:52,410 --> 01:19:49,390 on to a jury in the 90s I wrote a book 1772 01:19:55,850 --> 01:19:52,420 on surgery because I couldn't find a 1773 01:19:58,020 --> 01:19:55,860 book about rich emotional sensual 1774 01:19:59,820 --> 01:19:58,030 Druidry and I wrote a book called 1775 01:20:01,890 --> 01:19:59,830 spirits of the sacred grove which has 1776 01:20:04,440 --> 01:20:01,900 just been republished when it went to 1777 01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:04,450 America it was actually Rita told druid 1778 01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:08,010 priestess which was ludicrous but and 1779 01:20:12,270 --> 01:20:10,330 it's been published everywhere as 1780 01:20:13,650 --> 01:20:12,280 spirits of the sacred grow and then I 1781 01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:13,660 was commissioned to write a few more 1782 01:20:19,770 --> 01:20:16,330 books on jewelry like three or four more 1783 01:20:22,260 --> 01:20:19,780 books and then I stepped away from that 1784 01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:22,270 big publishing companies which I just 1785 01:20:28,440 --> 01:20:24,730 couldn't cope with and found a small 1786 01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:28,450 publishing house and they actually asked 1787 01:20:32,460 --> 01:20:30,489 me to write a book on the dark goddess 1788 01:20:37,100 --> 01:20:32,470 and I was writing a book called kissing 1789 01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:37,110 bihac which is about the complicated 1790 01:20:42,750 --> 01:20:40,690 unpleasant aspects of women nature and 1791 01:20:46,080 --> 01:20:42,760 I've you know your laughs it's about you 1792 01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:46,090 know women as feminists can you know be 1793 01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:48,130 very proud of themselves in all kinds of 1794 01:20:52,770 --> 01:20:50,800 ways and put down men I'm not great as a 1795 01:20:55,260 --> 01:20:52,780 feminist in that respect I think that 1796 01:20:58,200 --> 01:20:55,270 we're just as flawed men and women I 1797 01:21:01,100 --> 01:20:58,210 wanted to write a book about the drives 1798 01:21:04,830 --> 01:21:01,110 within women that make us behave badly 1799 01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:04,840 the the tempestuous the emotional the 1800 01:21:10,110 --> 01:21:07,810 manipulative all of these things and how 1801 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:10,120 those changes we go through life I have 1802 01:21:14,729 --> 01:21:12,730 to talk about this with you for a minute 1803 01:21:16,260 --> 01:21:14,739 because I'm trying to wrap this thing up 1804 01:21:18,570 --> 01:21:16,270 but you just hit on another thing I 1805 01:21:20,460 --> 01:21:18,580 think that's such an important issue and 1806 01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:20,470 you're a great person to bring that up 1807 01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:23,290 because at a at least in the states I 1808 01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:25,330 don't know about how it is in England 1809 01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:28,090 and in Europe but this whole feminism 1810 01:21:34,470 --> 01:21:31,170 thing has really been respawn and 1811 01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:34,480 manipulated into this gender fluidity 1812 01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:38,410 thing that really distorts I think some 1813 01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:40,570 of the fundamental issues of 1814 01:21:44,340 --> 01:21:42,730 male empowerment I mean in a way that 1815 01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:44,350 you're talking about what are some of 1816 01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:46,810 your thoughts on the whole gender 1817 01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:51,250 fluidity kind of nonsense would you what 1818 01:21:56,220 --> 01:21:52,570 you call it let me want to say nonsense 1819 01:22:00,270 --> 01:21:56,230 on one hand that's awesome if someone is 1820 01:22:02,430 --> 01:22:00,280 gay lesbian or identifies in some way I 1821 01:22:07,050 --> 01:22:02,440 don't have a problem with that 1822 01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:07,060 but the idea that we that there there is 1823 01:22:12,030 --> 01:22:09,730 a reality to any of it or that that 1824 01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:12,040 lessens the reality that most people 1825 01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:15,850 experience of being attached to the 1826 01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:17,770 female energy if you're a woman or being 1827 01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:19,810 attached to the male energy if you're a 1828 01:22:26,430 --> 01:22:22,930 man to kind of dismiss that in that same 1829 01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:26,440 kind of atheistic crazy materialistic 1830 01:22:33,750 --> 01:22:29,170 way to me just seems like an abomination 1831 01:22:38,250 --> 01:22:33,760 of the whole thing absolutely yes I'm 1832 01:22:39,930 --> 01:22:38,260 with you completely I have no I don't 1833 01:22:41,820 --> 01:22:39,940 care so as a matter of women or 1834 01:22:45,030 --> 01:22:41,830 something in between and I really have 1835 01:22:46,860 --> 01:22:45,040 no problem with sexuality or asexuality 1836 01:22:47,460 --> 01:22:46,870 or who you want to fall in love with or 1837 01:22:51,590 --> 01:22:47,470 sleep with 1838 01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:51,600 that's just so uninteresting or 1839 01:22:58,410 --> 01:22:55,330 unnecessary or whatever it's just what I 1840 01:23:05,190 --> 01:22:58,420 have a problem with is indignation 1841 01:23:09,780 --> 01:23:05,200 I find the indignant person quite ugly 1842 01:23:13,230 --> 01:23:09,790 and I I think about I know I there is 1843 01:23:15,180 --> 01:23:13,240 beauty in self-expression there is 1844 01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:15,190 beauty and self-acceptance there's 1845 01:23:20,340 --> 01:23:18,370 beauty and fluidity in the way that we 1846 01:23:22,980 --> 01:23:20,350 make relationships but immediately we 1847 01:23:25,110 --> 01:23:22,990 stand up in our own little separate 1848 01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:25,120 individual self and become indignant 1849 01:23:30,570 --> 01:23:27,850 because trouble and that's something to 1850 01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:30,580 be very awake to in ourselves 1851 01:23:35,310 --> 01:23:33,610 immediately I'm indignant I stop and go 1852 01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:35,320 I'll know what's gone wrong you know I 1853 01:23:39,810 --> 01:23:37,690 miss thinking this stop being indignant 1854 01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:39,820 that's dreadful the other thing that I 1855 01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:42,370 dislike is the celebration of victimhood 1856 01:23:48,300 --> 01:23:45,850 and I think do you know I know it's 1857 01:23:49,390 --> 01:23:48,310 super the part of my age I'm I'm into my 1858 01:23:52,390 --> 01:23:49,400 early fifth 1859 01:23:54,370 --> 01:23:52,400 and when I was young do you know as a 1860 01:23:58,180 --> 01:23:54,380 feminist I wasn't taught to be a 1861 01:24:02,290 --> 01:23:58,190 feminist I was taught to um I was taught 1862 01:24:05,050 --> 01:24:02,300 to survive well so if some old man older 1863 01:24:08,350 --> 01:24:05,060 man in his 40s 50s and I was like 6 or 7 1864 01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:08,360 was going to touch me inappropriately I 1865 01:24:16,510 --> 01:24:12,800 was taught to smack him to get up and 1866 01:24:21,669 --> 01:24:16,520 walk away I was taught to have the 1867 01:24:23,950 --> 01:24:21,679 strength to say no piss off and I know 1868 01:24:26,979 --> 01:24:23,960 because I was bullied as a child for 1869 01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:26,989 other reasons I know that it's hard when 1870 01:24:32,470 --> 01:24:30,170 people behave ferociously towards you 1871 01:24:39,220 --> 01:24:32,480 when they bully you I was raped at the 1872 01:24:44,979 --> 01:24:39,230 age of 16 um and then I so I understand 1873 01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:44,989 these things but I wouldn't sit in I 1874 01:24:49,930 --> 01:24:46,730 mean had some of the experience that I 1875 01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:49,940 had as a child people step up and and 1876 01:24:55,419 --> 01:24:53,690 create you know massive problems about 1877 01:24:57,939 --> 01:24:55,429 to me that was just a bad night you know 1878 01:24:59,950 --> 01:24:57,949 you just carry on because I was taught 1879 01:25:02,290 --> 01:24:59,960 to be strong and not be a victim you 1880 01:25:05,649 --> 01:25:02,300 just carry on and I know that some 1881 01:25:08,470 --> 01:25:05,659 people struggle and break have broken 1882 01:25:12,399 --> 01:25:08,480 right by dreadful experiences and I'm 1883 01:25:15,580 --> 01:25:12,409 not questioning that at all and I would 1884 01:25:17,229 --> 01:25:15,590 you know I hope pray that they find the 1885 01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:17,239 strength and I've been through periods 1886 01:25:21,669 --> 01:25:19,730 where I've broken for other reasons and 1887 01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:21,679 I you know found the strength to keep 1888 01:25:28,030 --> 01:25:24,560 going but the celebration of victimhood 1889 01:25:32,319 --> 01:25:28,040 the way that so many feminists focus on 1890 01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:32,329 the victim and focus on getting people 1891 01:25:38,740 --> 01:25:35,570 to express and explore the victim inside 1892 01:25:41,740 --> 01:25:38,750 them instead of finding their strength 1893 01:25:44,020 --> 01:25:41,750 and their emotional fluency their 1894 01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:44,030 emotional literacy their emotional 1895 01:25:49,180 --> 01:25:46,489 strength to get over it and move on 1896 01:25:50,830 --> 01:25:49,190 to let it go to get I mean I think one 1897 01:25:53,379 --> 01:25:50,840 of the main things I would say is just 1898 01:25:55,300 --> 01:25:53,389 get over yourself and that's going to be 1899 01:25:57,310 --> 01:25:55,310 really hard for ask really hard for some 1900 01:25:59,560 --> 01:25:57,320 people to say because there is a lot of 1901 01:26:01,450 --> 01:25:59,570 I totally get what you're saying there's 1902 01:26:02,190 --> 01:26:01,460 a lot of trauma as you're acknowledging 1903 01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:02,200 out there and a lot 1904 01:26:05,790 --> 01:26:04,090 people are dealing with it in a lot of 1905 01:26:07,650 --> 01:26:05,800 different ways you know my approach 1906 01:26:10,440 --> 01:26:07,660 because my background is basically as a 1907 01:26:13,140 --> 01:26:10,450 business person so my approach has 1908 01:26:14,850 --> 01:26:13,150 always been it's just not effective and 1909 01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:14,860 there's other ways that are more 1910 01:26:20,820 --> 01:26:17,770 effective you know so if you want to 1911 01:26:23,430 --> 01:26:20,830 play the victim card just practically 1912 01:26:25,830 --> 01:26:23,440 speaking you are going to be mired in 1913 01:26:27,450 --> 01:26:25,840 that and when what you really want is to 1914 01:26:29,490 --> 01:26:27,460 get to the other side of that we all 1915 01:26:31,950 --> 01:26:29,500 acknowledge that and a more effective 1916 01:26:34,740 --> 01:26:31,960 way of getting to the other side of it 1917 01:26:36,780 --> 01:26:34,750 is what you're talking about the other 1918 01:26:39,210 --> 01:26:36,790 part that I see that that you were 1919 01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:39,220 hitting on at the beginning that I don't 1920 01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:41,530 know I I'd like to hear you spin off on 1921 01:26:46,350 --> 01:26:44,290 a little bit further because I don't 1922 01:26:47,970 --> 01:26:46,360 know how people process it but I get the 1923 01:26:51,060 --> 01:26:47,980 bottom line of it and I'm not liking 1924 01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:51,070 what I'm hearing and that's that to not 1925 01:26:56,970 --> 01:26:54,370 acknowledge gender differences between 1926 01:26:58,890 --> 01:26:56,980 the majority of the population that 1927 01:27:01,680 --> 01:26:58,900 identifies themselves as either a man or 1928 01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:01,690 a woman and to not acknowledge those 1929 01:27:10,620 --> 01:27:04,330 differences seems to me to be this other 1930 01:27:13,620 --> 01:27:10,630 crazy materialistic in a way game of you 1931 01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:13,630 know just denying that we have free will 1932 01:27:19,500 --> 01:27:17,410 and that as collectively we seem to be 1933 01:27:21,300 --> 01:27:19,510 have these tendencies that doesn't mean 1934 01:27:25,050 --> 01:27:21,310 that we're tied to that that doesn't 1935 01:27:27,270 --> 01:27:25,060 mean that I can't you know be a get in 1936 01:27:29,310 --> 01:27:27,280 touch with my feminine side but mostly I 1937 01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:29,320 identify with a lot of things that it 1938 01:27:34,230 --> 01:27:30,970 seems like other guys identify with I 1939 01:27:36,990 --> 01:27:34,240 mean at some point that has to be okay 1940 01:27:40,740 --> 01:27:37,000 to factor that into the equation 1941 01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:40,750 I yes I'm not sure I'm hearing exactly 1942 01:27:44,610 --> 01:27:41,530 what you're saying 1943 01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:44,620 but I think for me I think it's all just 1944 01:27:50,430 --> 01:27:48,130 I mean it's all fine whatever just just 1945 01:27:52,440 --> 01:27:50,440 get imprint when you were talking about 1946 01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:52,450 your book you were talking about kind of 1947 01:27:58,790 --> 01:27:55,210 celebrating the womanhood 1948 01:28:01,500 --> 01:27:58,800 right and I mean implicit in that is 1949 01:28:04,110 --> 01:28:01,510 saying that there does seem to be in 1950 01:28:06,570 --> 01:28:04,120 general some kind of tendencies towards 1951 01:28:08,010 --> 01:28:06,580 women you weren't saying that this is 1952 01:28:10,050 --> 01:28:08,020 just my experience and no one else 1953 01:28:11,610 --> 01:28:10,060 experiences it you were kind of saying 1954 01:28:13,170 --> 01:28:11,620 gee it seems like a lot other women 1955 01:28:15,790 --> 01:28:13,180 experience the same thing I experience 1956 01:28:18,399 --> 01:28:15,800 yes absolutely and all 1957 01:28:21,189 --> 01:28:18,409 so it's there are lots of ways in which 1958 01:28:23,580 --> 01:28:21,199 we as women behave badly towards each 1959 01:28:28,390 --> 01:28:23,590 other towards ourselves and towards men 1960 01:28:31,709 --> 01:28:28,400 and and we need to just be awake to that 1961 01:28:34,899 --> 01:28:31,719 instead of declaring that it's okay 1962 01:28:37,379 --> 01:28:34,909 perhaps we can just declare that that's 1963 01:28:39,580 --> 01:28:37,389 human nature that's woman nature and 1964 01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:39,590 maybe there are ways of getting through 1965 01:28:47,169 --> 01:28:42,770 it in different ways and I I enjoyed 1966 01:28:49,419 --> 01:28:47,179 writing the book and but it wasn't the 1967 01:28:51,939 --> 01:28:49,429 most it isn't the most important book 1968 01:28:55,959 --> 01:28:51,949 that I think I bring but of course it's 1969 01:28:57,910 --> 01:28:55,969 the best-selling book and the the most 1970 01:29:01,990 --> 01:28:57,920 celebrated book and it's the book that 1971 01:29:04,510 --> 01:29:02,000 most people talk to me about because and 1972 01:29:07,620 --> 01:29:04,520 and it's fascinating you know wild 1973 01:29:10,109 --> 01:29:07,630 feminists and trans people and 1974 01:29:13,270 --> 01:29:10,119 youngsters coming you know through their 1975 01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:13,280 puberty and people men opposing do you 1976 01:29:17,020 --> 01:29:15,290 know all women come to me and say all 1977 01:29:18,819 --> 01:29:17,030 that work really talks to me and also 1978 01:29:20,260 --> 01:29:18,829 many men have come to me and say thank 1979 01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:20,270 you for that book it helps me to 1980 01:29:25,649 --> 01:29:21,770 understand my wife and my girlfriend 1981 01:29:29,260 --> 01:29:25,659 which is lovely it's great but actually 1982 01:29:34,060 --> 01:29:29,270 the next book I wrote is that living 1983 01:29:36,669 --> 01:29:34,070 with honor is the book that I am that 1984 01:29:38,589 --> 01:29:36,679 I'm more proud of that's an ethics book 1985 01:29:44,970 --> 01:29:38,599 I wanted to write about ethics and an 1986 01:29:49,540 --> 01:29:44,980 ethics of animism and when you consider 1987 01:29:52,510 --> 01:29:49,550 nature to be sacred how do you survive I 1988 01:29:56,200 --> 01:29:52,520 mean if you can put to one side that the 1989 01:30:01,419 --> 01:29:56,210 sentient folk and the sacred folk and 1990 01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:01,429 you don't eat or use those the sacred 1991 01:30:04,629 --> 01:30:03,290 folk all the sentient folk then that's 1992 01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:04,639 fine everything else you can use 1993 01:30:09,609 --> 01:30:07,010 everything else is stuff that you can 1994 01:30:12,430 --> 01:30:09,619 consume but when everything is sacred 1995 01:30:14,229 --> 01:30:12,440 and everything is sentient how do you 1996 01:30:15,850 --> 01:30:14,239 survive because you need to eat you need 1997 01:30:17,379 --> 01:30:15,860 to find shelter how do you make 1998 01:30:20,350 --> 01:30:17,389 decisions and that's really what that 1999 01:30:21,689 --> 01:30:20,360 books about making decisions based on 2000 01:30:24,669 --> 01:30:21,699 the fact that nature is sacred 2001 01:30:27,640 --> 01:30:24,679 comprehensively and then having written 2002 01:30:29,579 --> 01:30:27,650 and ethics living with honor then I 2003 01:30:32,369 --> 01:30:29,589 started to realize 2004 01:30:34,770 --> 01:30:32,379 one of the premises that the basic 2005 01:30:36,299 --> 01:30:34,780 premise of living with honor was an 2006 01:30:39,419 --> 01:30:36,309 assumption that I hadn't been clear 2007 01:30:41,429 --> 01:30:39,429 about which is nature is sacred 2008 01:30:46,229 --> 01:30:41,439 why is nature naked nature sacred 2009 01:30:49,529 --> 01:30:46,239 because it is because it is conscious 2010 01:30:51,119 --> 01:30:49,539 it's minded and so then I decided to 2011 01:30:54,869 --> 01:30:51,129 write the book that you spoke off first 2012 01:30:58,139 --> 01:30:54,879 the wakeful world which is an 2013 01:31:00,659 --> 01:30:58,149 exploration of why nature is sacred 2014 01:31:03,569 --> 01:31:00,669 you know how as kids we ask questions 2015 01:31:06,059 --> 01:31:03,579 and you know the lazy parent will go 2016 01:31:08,579 --> 01:31:06,069 just because you know well just because 2017 01:31:10,290 --> 01:31:08,589 one you know answer the question or just 2018 01:31:12,750 --> 01:31:10,300 because actually I don't know the answer 2019 01:31:15,899 --> 01:31:12,760 is just because and I wanted to make 2020 01:31:18,659 --> 01:31:15,909 sure that there was no just because not 2021 01:31:20,609 --> 01:31:18,669 that I had an answer for everything but 2022 01:31:23,689 --> 01:31:20,619 that it was clear that I had thought 2023 01:31:28,109 --> 01:31:23,699 through everything so that I wasn't 2024 01:31:29,609 --> 01:31:28,119 sitting on an unexplored assumption and 2025 01:31:32,729 --> 01:31:29,619 those are so hard like unexplored 2026 01:31:35,609 --> 01:31:32,739 prejudices oryx are assumptions which is 2027 01:31:38,309 --> 01:31:35,619 so fundamental so we don't know they're 2028 01:31:40,379 --> 01:31:38,319 there and that's the same well 2029 01:31:43,679 --> 01:31:40,389 prejudices come from those assumptions 2030 01:31:46,259 --> 01:31:43,689 those basic beliefs which are so 2031 01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:46,269 fundamental to our nature as individuals 2032 01:31:50,609 --> 01:31:48,010 as people in certain communities 2033 01:31:52,889 --> 01:31:50,619 cultures that we don't actually know 2034 01:31:55,799 --> 01:31:52,899 they're there and materialism is one of 2035 01:31:58,169 --> 01:31:55,809 those those those assumptions not one 2036 01:32:02,189 --> 01:31:58,179 that I have had but I see all around me 2037 01:32:05,849 --> 01:32:02,199 our language supports it and when you're 2038 01:32:09,020 --> 01:32:05,859 when realizing that you know that nature 2039 01:32:14,270 --> 01:32:09,030 is sacred nature is minded is such a 2040 01:32:17,849 --> 01:32:14,280 totally different fundamental paradigm 2041 01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:17,859 that then I realized that that the 2042 01:32:23,009 --> 01:32:19,530 ethics book is really quite difficult 2043 01:32:25,409 --> 01:32:23,019 but if you have that paradigm that 2044 01:32:28,169 --> 01:32:25,419 nature is minded then the ethics makes 2045 01:32:29,939 --> 01:32:28,179 sense so having written the ethics then 2046 01:32:33,869 --> 01:32:29,949 I realized that people were finding this 2047 01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:33,879 hard why all bits because it is such a 2048 01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:37,449 big leap from materialism to an animist 2049 01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:37,970 respect 2050 01:32:44,590 --> 01:32:42,530 I mean experiential comprehensive total 2051 01:32:46,980 --> 01:32:44,600 perception of animism not an 2052 01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:46,990 intellectual eyes concept of animism 2053 01:32:53,050 --> 01:32:51,410 when we live in a way where everything 2054 01:32:58,350 --> 01:32:53,060 we touch everything RIA 2055 01:33:01,900 --> 01:32:58,360 interact with we immediately and fully 2056 01:33:04,090 --> 01:33:01,910 recognize a sentient that's a different 2057 01:33:06,610 --> 01:33:04,100 experience and an experience that we 2058 01:33:10,480 --> 01:33:06,620 probably can never completely get there 2059 01:33:12,130 --> 01:33:10,490 I mean we are imaged in this materialism 2060 01:33:14,530 --> 01:33:12,140 whether we like it or not 2061 01:33:16,450 --> 01:33:14,540 and what I find and by the way your 2062 01:33:18,910 --> 01:33:16,460 books are brilliantly written they're 2063 01:33:20,350 --> 01:33:18,920 just beautifully written Isis someone 2064 01:33:22,180 --> 01:33:20,360 who's published one book and just 2065 01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:22,190 struggled mightily to get it out it's 2066 01:33:30,190 --> 01:33:25,010 also they're in awe of what you do but 2067 01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:30,200 it is it is okay that we are only trying 2068 01:33:35,530 --> 01:33:33,890 to expand our comfort zone by being more 2069 01:33:37,630 --> 01:33:35,540 in that space in being less 2070 01:33:39,880 --> 01:33:37,640 materialistic because anyone who moves 2071 01:33:41,380 --> 01:33:39,890 in that direction feels that freedom 2072 01:33:44,590 --> 01:33:41,390 even if we can't get all the way there 2073 01:33:47,140 --> 01:33:44,600 right well yes I think so yes I think so 2074 01:33:51,070 --> 01:33:47,150 but also understanding that there are 2075 01:33:55,300 --> 01:33:51,080 cultures that have that complete 2076 01:33:56,920 --> 01:33:55,310 animistic foundation you know the Native 2077 01:33:59,620 --> 01:33:56,930 American cultures the cultures that I 2078 01:34:05,440 --> 01:33:59,630 interacted with us as a child in the 2079 01:34:08,710 --> 01:34:05,450 Amazon the Amazonian Indians and folks 2080 01:34:10,300 --> 01:34:08,720 that I was engaging with philosophically 2081 01:34:12,670 --> 01:34:10,310 in Japan and the Shinto communities 2082 01:34:16,210 --> 01:34:12,680 people who are talking about Shintoism 2083 01:34:18,190 --> 01:34:16,220 they're absolutely non materialistic in 2084 01:34:21,730 --> 01:34:18,200 terms of their philosophical perspective 2085 01:34:26,290 --> 01:34:21,740 completely animistic and the great 2086 01:34:29,650 --> 01:34:26,300 divide between that and the material the 2087 01:34:33,730 --> 01:34:29,660 materialistic is is so big that the the 2088 01:34:36,790 --> 01:34:33,740 lack of understanding is profound I did 2089 01:34:39,180 --> 01:34:36,800 a conference I also work with a called 2090 01:34:42,490 --> 01:34:39,190 honoring the ancient dead which is um 2091 01:34:45,850 --> 01:34:42,500 looking after ancient human remains or 2092 01:34:48,060 --> 01:34:45,860 ancient ancestors that are exhumed you 2093 01:34:50,290 --> 01:34:48,070 know the bones of that's a long dead 2094 01:34:51,489 --> 01:34:50,300 that are exhumed and then put into 2095 01:34:53,250 --> 01:34:51,499 museums 2096 01:34:55,870 --> 01:34:53,260 in store cupboards you know just 2097 01:34:58,330 --> 01:34:55,880 disrespected and honoring the ancient 2098 01:34:59,919 --> 01:34:58,340 dead puts forward this this 2099 01:35:01,989 --> 01:34:59,929 understanding this perspective that 2100 01:35:03,879 --> 01:35:01,999 these are people they're not just 2101 01:35:04,959 --> 01:35:03,889 they're not just bones they're not just 2102 01:35:07,629 --> 01:35:04,969 bits of stuff 2103 01:35:09,250 --> 01:35:07,639 they're people yeah but all that all 2104 01:35:12,669 --> 01:35:09,260 that just gets a little bit problematic 2105 01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:12,679 I kind of always recoil when people say 2106 01:35:17,469 --> 01:35:14,449 that yeah that's so the Amazon II and 2107 01:35:19,629 --> 01:35:17,479 people are animistic until somebody 2108 01:35:21,759 --> 01:35:19,639 walks in with a frickin machete and then 2109 01:35:23,469 --> 01:35:21,769 they say wow you know this kind of works 2110 01:35:26,049 --> 01:35:23,479 pretty good and the next day somebody 2111 01:35:27,969 --> 01:35:26,059 walks in with a chainsaw and some people 2112 01:35:29,290 --> 01:35:27,979 say no but some people say yes and I 2113 01:35:31,569 --> 01:35:29,300 also relate to your other story where 2114 01:35:33,969 --> 01:35:31,579 you talk to the you know Native American 2115 01:35:35,919 --> 01:35:33,979 Canadian people who are honest and say 2116 01:35:38,620 --> 01:35:35,929 gee we have a hard time stripping out 2117 01:35:40,689 --> 01:35:38,630 some of the dogma and the orthodoxy 2118 01:35:42,819 --> 01:35:40,699 that's kind of hung around for a long 2119 01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:42,829 time I mean it's all you know we're all 2120 01:35:46,270 --> 01:35:44,449 trying to figure out the same thing I 2121 01:35:49,419 --> 01:35:46,280 think we're all someplace in that gray 2122 01:35:51,759 --> 01:35:49,429 area I'm not totally on board with it 2123 01:35:54,219 --> 01:35:51,769 you can be totally animistic I think you 2124 01:35:55,359 --> 01:35:54,229 can be kind of more in that then a lot 2125 01:35:57,759 --> 01:35:55,369 of us could move in that direction 2126 01:36:00,279 --> 01:35:57,769 pretty comfortably without without ever 2127 01:36:02,589 --> 01:36:00,289 having to kind of pull back but I think 2128 01:36:04,029 --> 01:36:02,599 my my experience is that it's like you 2129 01:36:05,799 --> 01:36:04,039 know one of those cubes where all other 2130 01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:05,809 lines are drawn in and you can just 2131 01:36:09,939 --> 01:36:08,090 shift your perspective of which side is 2132 01:36:12,370 --> 01:36:09,949 front waist you know what I mean there's 2133 01:36:13,299 --> 01:36:12,380 sort of this there's a name for that I 2134 01:36:16,450 --> 01:36:13,309 can't remember what it is 2135 01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:16,460 yeah the Rubik's Cube yeah when you 2136 01:36:20,049 --> 01:36:18,650 shift on the anthem you know the front 2137 01:36:21,399 --> 01:36:20,059 is there and then you can shift your 2138 01:36:23,879 --> 01:36:21,409 perspective in the front and the front 2139 01:36:28,029 --> 01:36:23,889 is the other side of the cube and that 2140 01:36:30,879 --> 01:36:28,039 instant shift of perspective is what I 2141 01:36:32,890 --> 01:36:30,889 feel it is I think you can you can see 2142 01:36:35,589 --> 01:36:32,900 everything is alive you can feel you can 2143 01:36:39,339 --> 01:36:35,599 react and respond moment by moment to 2144 01:36:41,950 --> 01:36:39,349 everything as minded or you can shift 2145 01:36:46,330 --> 01:36:41,960 your perspective and what is around you 2146 01:36:49,270 --> 01:36:46,340 is in art and that is I think a shift a 2147 01:36:51,370 --> 01:36:49,280 radical shift of perspective I think 2148 01:36:53,410 --> 01:36:51,380 there is a gray area in terms of the 2149 01:36:56,259 --> 01:36:53,420 intellectualizing or the understanding 2150 01:36:59,919 --> 01:36:56,269 of it but not the experience of it 2151 01:37:03,040 --> 01:36:59,929 moment to moment we could go on and on 2152 01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:03,050 it is so awesome talking to you and it's 2153 01:37:07,930 --> 01:37:05,330 been absolutely great I'm going 2154 01:37:10,300 --> 01:37:07,940 had you shared that wonderful list of 2155 01:37:13,750 --> 01:37:10,310 books that you have and I hope people do 2156 01:37:16,750 --> 01:37:13,760 check out one or more of these books 2157 01:37:19,270 --> 01:37:16,760 because they're really so fantastic I 2158 01:37:21,430 --> 01:37:19,280 think you really enjoy them thanks again 2159 01:37:23,410 --> 01:37:21,440 I can I can write it away which is a bit 2160 01:37:26,980 --> 01:37:23,420 more coherent than talking and I'm 2161 01:37:28,810 --> 01:37:26,990 rambling with indecision so I think my 2162 01:37:30,700 --> 01:37:28,820 mind goes all over the place but our 2163 01:37:33,790 --> 01:37:30,710 conversation over the last hours there 2164 01:37:37,210 --> 01:37:33,800 has been all over the place like a swarm 2165 01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:37,220 of honeybees it's great well I took the 2166 01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:39,650 lead in one of your presentations where 2167 01:37:45,310 --> 01:37:42,650 you said that you don't like to prepare 2168 01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:45,320 too much in advance because the only 2169 01:37:49,810 --> 01:37:47,210 thing that's ever happening is what's 2170 01:37:51,430 --> 01:37:49,820 happening now so I think we lived up to 2171 01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:51,440 that to a certain extent and that's 2172 01:37:55,660 --> 01:37:54,290 awesome absolutely I don't prepare much 2173 01:37:58,150 --> 01:37:55,670 in advance it is moment-to-moment 2174 01:38:01,560 --> 01:37:58,160 because it's about relationship and it's 2175 01:38:03,700 --> 01:38:01,570 been great talking to you Alex thank you 2176 01:38:05,590 --> 01:38:03,710 thanks again to Emma for joining me 2177 01:38:07,060 --> 01:38:05,600 today on skeptic oh there are many 2178 01:38:08,830 --> 01:38:07,070 questions I could T up from this 2179 01:38:11,650 --> 01:38:08,840 interview but I'll just pick the easiest 2180 01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:11,660 obvious one has science ultimately 2181 01:38:16,480 --> 01:38:14,810 failed us in the balance good and bad we 2182 01:38:18,790 --> 01:38:16,490 can look at our lasers and our iPhones 2183 01:38:20,170 --> 01:38:18,800 and our GPS but on the other side you 2184 01:38:22,750 --> 01:38:20,180 can look at the things that you might 2185 01:38:23,770 --> 01:38:22,760 not like about society culture or the 2186 01:38:26,350 --> 01:38:23,780 way things are going 2187 01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:26,360 however you slice that has science 2188 01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:28,730 failed us is the question of course the 2189 01:38:33,250 --> 01:38:31,010 place to weigh in with your answer is 2190 01:38:35,590 --> 01:38:33,260 through the sceptical website or the 2191 01:38:37,030 --> 01:38:35,600 skeptical forum please join the forum if 2192 01:38:38,650 --> 01:38:37,040 you haven't we get some really really 2193 01:38:40,810 --> 01:38:38,660 smart interesting people over there and 2194 01:38:42,910 --> 01:38:40,820 they create a great dialogue I know many 2195 01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:42,920 of our guests join us after the show and 2196 01:38:48,340 --> 01:38:45,890 that creates a great interaction too so 2197 01:38:50,440 --> 01:38:48,350 please if you're inclined to do so join 2198 01:38:52,330 --> 01:38:50,450 the forum of course you also want to 2199 01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:52,340 download any previous shows that you 2200 01:38:57,970 --> 01:38:53,930 missed and you can do all that for free 2201 01:39:00,130 --> 01:38:57,980 at The Skeptical website ske p TI k o 2202 01:39:02,080 --> 01:39:00,140 comm you can also leave a comment there 2203 01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:02,090 drop me a note whatever you like stay 2204 01:39:05,500 --> 01:39:03,410 connected with the show share the show 2205 01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:05,510 all that good stuff and stick around for 2206 01:39:11,620 --> 01:39:08,170 more skeptical I have some good episode